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this post was submitted on 25 Apr 2024
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They also justified the terrorist attack on the 7th of october, welcomed the large attack on Israel, are not "ashamed to say that Israel has no place in their land and has to be removed" and "will do it again and again".
So yeah they may lay their weapons down, but they never remain peaceful.
Source: https://news.yahoo.com/hamas-member-says-repeat-attacks-065643206.html?guccounter=1
https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/11/02/world/israel-hamas-war-gaza-news#hamas-official-promises-more-attacks-against-israel-similar-to-those-of-oct-7
Okay? I still only see one side saying they're willing to lay down arms. "This will end when we get an independent state" vs. "this will end when you're all dead?" The former seems more reasonable to me. Your mileage may vary.
It does. I agree that Netanyahu has to go and Palestine should have the chance to be independend, but the Hamas has also to be put down for good. With those terrorist fucks and their degenerated supporters, there will be no peace in the middle east.
How did 'Al Qaeda has to be put down for good' work out for the U.S.?
Mission Accomplished! Haliburton won ^ every contract^
Not that bad since Osama and Zawahiri are dead. Their last big terrorist attack against America was when, 2010? Against the west in general, in France 2015? Since then they pretty much done or in a clash with the Taliban. If we can do the same with the Hamas, I would call it a win.
I see, so by 'put down for good,' you meant 'still exists, just not doing anything dangerous to Israel at this moment.'
Also, you know it took decades of war for Al Qaeda to get to that point, right?
Which is pretty desireable based on the current situation, right? Get rid of their leadership and cripple them.
No shit sherlock, but it's also not like the conflict in the middle east just started in October...we are already a few years into it and it looks like a good point to get rid of their leadership for good now. That and a independend Palestine could make terrorists like them useless and maybe, just maybe could bring peace to the region. But with them still intact, I so ne future in this...
I guess I'm very confused about the way you used term 'put down for good' to mean 'made ineffective, but maybe only temporarily' or why you think this conflict wouldn't also take decades.
Do you think when people have a pet put down, they actually send it to live on a farm upstate?
Yeah I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion here...and no I don't think that Osama is on a farm right now, but maybe you do. And yes "made ineffective, but maybe only temporarily" is a desiable state for the current situation since it can pretty much mean that they are done. But like I said no point in discussing this any further with you ;)
Okay. Though just so you know, this is what 'for good' means:
you can use google, not bad. Have an upvote for that :)
Apparently you also do not know what the phrase "I guess there is no point in continuing this discussion here" means.
You can't shoot an idea. The only way to kill Hamas for good would be genocide. Or actually solving the underlying problem with Palestine, and so starving them of redicalised recruits.
If Palestine wasn't oppressed, no one would be joining Hamas and they would have no power. This is a problem Isreal created for themselves.
I recommend this video, it really shows how what Isreal calls peace is still so oppressive.
They shouldn't be ashamed to say it. Israel has no place on their land and should be removed. We aren't talking about mom and pop tourists but militants that are forcing people out of their homes and killing their children.
What the fuck are you smoking?
Now do Israel with the same energy.
It’s pointless arguing this on Lemmy. Everyone here is convinced that the Islamic jihadists are oppressed and just want peace despite what they actually say and do.
I'm not saying that. You guys seem to think Arabs are born angry, though, and so can't be dealt with just by not being consistently a bastard yourself.
Hey what's your thoughts on manifest destiny? Just curious
Never heard of it
How do you feel about Irish independence then?
I think it’s up to the people from Northern Ireland
Who said anything about Northern Ireland? I said Irish independence not Irish unification.
Who said anything about Ireland. The post is about Hamas
Are you aware that one of the major factors to Ireland independence is terrorism.
Irish politicians also have a problem with just not saying evil stupid shit on Armenian issues.
Which seems especially weird considering that ASALA had connections with IRA.
Was their stated goal to wipe the U.K. off the face of the planet so that they could go to paradise?
Yes, I can easily find IRA leadership talking about mass English genocide from the isle and from the world. Terrorists say some crazy fucked up things in the process of committing violence. But if that's your standard, I can find Israel leadership talking about genociding palastinians. Except unlike Hamas and the IRA, the Israel leadership actually have the force required to do that genocide.
Point being. Do you think Ireland deserves it's independence?
See, it feels like I'm asking you a trick question. Like there is no right answer without making you look silly.
It's not a trick question, you just have conflicting beliefs.
I don’t think you actually understand jihadism. You think it’s a reaction to other circumstances and some fringe extremists rather than the actual goal and being widely supported. You can’t comprehend that goal so try to frame it in logic. But there is no logic involved in the beliefs of Islam and jihadism.
Yes Ireland deserves independence. Yes Palestine deserves independence. But that would not stop them trying to eradicate non Muslims.
I’m leaving this thread now but I can only suggest you listen to some Sam Harris
I don't think you understand the conditions in which terrorism appears. You want to act like there's something special in their blood/culture/religion that makes them Uber terrorists with no logic no brain no motive. Like even without oppression Hamas would of shown up to kill Jews elsewhere in the world.
That's racist m8. They are human beings driven by the same shit as you and me. And you look yourself in the mirror and objectively ask yourself if you think you'd be better if you lived their life up to this point.
Cause and effect. Very simple. Colonize and oppress a population. Cause. Terrorism. Effect.
Hey did you know before Israel that Christians and Jews made up 1/5th the population of the area? Crazy how they were not just committing mass genocide then.
Did you know Gaza right now has a arab Christian and Arab Jewish population?
The latter may not be true, Hamas is quite hostile to any Jews.
Arab Christian population is not only Arab, it also includes Assyrians and Chaldeans and Syriacs. I would expect there are not so many Maronites among those Arab Christians due to Lebanon civil war.
I would also expect that there are very few Druze and no Yazidis, because towards smaller religions on the fringe of Gnosticism they are very intolerant. Basically many Muslims consider both religions Satanist.
It’s not racist. Religionist maybe. And I stand by it. Islam is the biggest threat we face today. You don’t understand that.
I cannot say if I grew up there that I wouldn’t have the same beliefs, brainwashing children is extremely effective. But those ideas, the religion, need to be acknowledged and challenged in any response. Not just stick our heads in the sand and pretend they’re logical beliefs and that they will spontaneously want peace despite them repeatedly telling you they don’t.
Hey at least you took off the mask so your genuine argument could shine through. It's a terrible argument as currently Israel is weaponizing it's religion as well to commit the genocide in the first place.
Unlike you however, I am not a racist who will label Judaism as the cause for the genocide of palastinians like you wish to lable all of Islam for. That's very silly
You stand on no actual moral grounds. You do not care about human beings in the slightest. You do not care about why these human beings are doing what they are doing. You do not care about the historical context that led to this moment in time. To you, Islam is evil. Islamists are evil. Killing Muslims is a necessary evil.
That's fucking disgusting.
If that’s what you want to take from what I said then that’s fine, but no, I’m not racist or genocidal.
Islam is evil. Not all its followers are. And if people weren’t so scared of being labeled racist we might have an honest discussion about its problems. Hamas needs to be fought just like Nazis did. Naziism needed to be destroyed, not Germans, despite Nazi ideas proliferating through Germany.
There is no historical context worth discussing. Hamas wants to kill Jews and always will.
Listen to Sam Harris. Or continue to defend jihad. Whatever
So, you are racist and on par with the Nazis in my mind. Your calling for the continued genocide of human beings because of their religion. That's genocide pal. But instead of telling you to fuck off, I want to explore your mind. I want to get how you got here. Just so we have an understanding. I'm not trying to convince you. I just have questions for you as a human being.
Is it Islam in specific or religion in general? I assume just Islam as you didn't mention others but I wanna check.
What is your Religion if any?
And what about Islam specifically that is ubiquitous to the whole religion do you find so evil that other major religions don't?
Just Islam. Don’t see any others religions doing jihad these days. But they’re all nonsensical
Can you answer the other questions?
Nope, I’m done with this conversation. I’m a racist bigot with no compassion for the poor terrorists. You got me. You win
It ain't about winning. I told you, I do not believe that I can or will change your mind. We are miles down a comment chain, no one but us will read this. This is me wanting to understand you. Do you not want to just talk about what you believe? You gotta be yelling and arguing about it? Arguing over. Tell me what you believe and why. I'm asking you to just calmly explain.
Listen to Sam Harris. My views are identical, but he is much more capable at explaining than I could ever hope to be. Try the making sense podcast episode 362.
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/making-sense-with-sam-harris/id733163012?i=1000651919029
I'm not interested in him or his ideas. I'm interested in you and your ideas and how you reconcile them. I understand the ideology but you are not ideology. Your a person with complex and conflicting ideas
You’re*
His ideas match mine completely but you aren’t interested because you cannot respond to him with insults so you want me to try to explain them with my poor cogency.
No conflict here, maybe just poor communication skills
His ideas do not match yours completely because you are two separate human beings. I am interested with your ideology but in this context I am interested in how you as a person came to this ideology. I'm curious of your life's context that has led you here and he cannot tell me that.
I do not want to hear you explain your ideas because I want to understand your ideas, I want to hear them so that I can understand how you interpreted that ideology and then ask questions. Once again, not to prove to you that your wrong but I want to know how you reconcile those ideas with other basic ones. I cannot get that information from him. Only from you.
I got the insults out of the way, the argument is over. Now I just have questions.
Actually in a way kind of yeah