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AOC is right: Jill Stein’s campaign is not serious
(www.salon.com)
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this post was submitted on 16 Sep 2024
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politics
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I don't care about the reasoning you make for your actions. We're talking about the results of those actions.
You will affect the race in one of two ways regardless of what you do. You will either benefit Party A or Party B, those parties being the two largest parties, aka Democrats and Republicans. Non votes and 3rd party votes benefit the smaller party, which is the GOP. This is an absolute fact within a FPTP system, even if you can't accept it because of the obvious implications.
If you feel the GOP has done more to earn your support, that's your call. I just think that's some next level dumbassery.
Your vote for Harris is stealing a vote from a 3rd party and giving it to Trump.
When a 3rd party becomes larger than the Democratic or Republican party, you would be correct. That is not the case, so you're still incorrect.
So in your opinion what makes the GOP more deserving of your support compared to the Democrats?
Neither one of them is deserving of support.
And yet when you look at this from the perspective of voting in the general election, everyone is going to support one of them regardless. Unless you can explain how a 3rd party will realistically win the election or how the GOP winning is beneficial. Why can't you explain that?
So again, why do you want to support the GOP over the Democrats?
I don't support the GOP over Democrats. They may have different methods of delivering their message but the overall outcome is the same. They take money from the same people, the same bankers, the same CEOS. One is just covert in their racism bigotry and lies.
If you think the GOP and the Democratic Party are equal threats that's an opinion you are welcome to hold.
I find that view to be completely asinine and at odds with reality but you do you. That doesn't change the end result of your actions if you don't vote or vote 3rd party: you're supporting the GOP.
I truly don't care why you choose to vote the way you do. I just want you and everyone on earth to know the results of your actions, support for the GOP.
A vote for a right wing authoritarian Democrat is closer in ideology to GOP and their end game than voting for 3 party.
Are you going to back up ANYTHING you say?
How does the election result in neither the Democrat or Republican nominee winning? If your 3rd party vote isn't helping one of those two parties, there must be another possible outcome. Just give us one. One single realistic alternative outcome.
Assuming you can't handle #1 (which I'm pretty sure you can't without resorting to fantasy), how does a vote for the "right wing authoritarian" Democrat help the GOP MORE than a vote for a 3rd party when there are 2 possible outcomes?
If you can answer for either of these giant gaping holes in your logic I will be astounded. I'll let you answer but I think I'm done with this thread. Have a good night!
In a FPTP system all it takes is enough voter refusing to vote for either fascist and vote for a 3rd party.
Which third party candidate deserves support? Stein is Russian trash
You're not supposed to drink the entire pitcher of propaganda.
Only if that third party stood any chance of winning. Which they don't.
If you have to go back 160 years, maybe that should tell you something about how realistic it is.
the only vote that can benefit any party is a vote for that party. don't spread misinformation.
You are incorrect. While a vote for the GOP candidate certainly carries more weight, it doesn't mean they don't benefit from non/3rd party votes. That is how FPTP voting works.
they literally cannot benefit from it at all. it's a vote against them and for another candidate.
Non/3rd party votes make it easier for the SMALLER party to win, and that happens to be the GOP here. This is just how FPTP voting works.
There are two possible outcomes, how could your actions not benefit one of the two possible winners?
I get that it feels icky, especially when someone views voting as a way to send a message or present their own moral views, but that's not what voting is. Not in the general election at least.
you have no authority to tell others what their motivations ought to be for voting.
Your motivations can be whatever you want. You just don't get to absolve yourself of responsibility for the results of your actions. I think that's a fair position.
so you'll take responsibility for empowering the genocide enablers?
I will take responsibility for enabling one of the two genocide enablers that I can choose from, yes. I am choosing to enable the one that contains a modicum of dissention from the status quo vs the one that wants to wipe Gaza from the map entirely.
Why would you want to enable the party that wants even more genocide than the Democrats do?
i'm not going to take responsibility for the policies of someone i vote against. that makes no sense.
You're still ignoring the realities of FPTP voting. There is precisely one way to effectively "vote against" the GOP during the general election and you seem to be advocating against it.
Explain to me how Gaza gets better if Trump wins. Or literally any issue. Even if the loss magically created a huge shift in the Democratic leadership that echoed throughout the caucus and they go all in on every progressive policy we could possibly want. Let's say they make Rashida Tlaib minority leader. Let's say every single Democrat now supports a full embargo of Israel until they cease all hostilities. Lets say every Democrat now supports whatever policy you want. How does any of that help once the government is fully controlled by fascists that will literally make it impossible for the now Super Progressive Democratic Party to ever get back in power and do those things?
If your justification for supporting the GOP is that the Democrats haven't done enough on Gaza that's fine. I just question the logic.
i'm not voting for trump.
You're just doing everything you can to help him win.
except the only thing i could do: vote for him instead of against.
i'm not supporting the gop. you're lying.
Just so everyone else is aware, we're now here.
when you lie, expect to be called out.
Calling me out would suggest you've provided some evidence that I'm lying, despite just having my reasoning clearly laid out. Reasoning that you've provided no alternative to outside of "you're lying".
So where's this call out? Explain to us how there aren't 2 possible winners of the election in our FPTP system.
Spoiler
We're going back to "Not Uh!"Jesus christ it's like we're talking to children.
They want to punish Democrats more than they want to stop the GOP. These people are willing to let Trump erase Gaza in order to say "we told you so!" to the Democrats. They don't give a shit how many more people are harmed as long as they feel like they stuck it to somebody in the voting booth.
And they completely ignore what'll happen to people in the US itself if Trump wins as well. They're completely willing to throw everyone under the bus to feel smug and righteous. Hell, I'd imagine most of them want to do so. The most you'll ever get from them is *BoTh SiDeS bAd" which is ignorant at best. Anyone with a pair of working brain cells is able to tell the difference.
i am the authority on who i am supporting, and my word is the only evidence you have. you are lying about who i support. and now you're gaslighting me about needing to provide evidence.
You are the authority on what you do. You don't get to ignore the results because you don't want to take responsibility. You've declared your actions, I've explained the results.
Honestly this has gone in a circle long enough. We're not going to get anywhere if you dont want to provide any kind of evidence/reasoning and basely accuse me of lying. I do appreciate you assisting illustrate a valuable point about how hollow the 3rd party justification is though. Have a nice day!
you lied about who i'm supporting.
You are too by voting third party.
de la cruz, west, and Stein all oppose supporting genocide
Telling other people that their votes do not matter is a common right wing voter suppression tactic. And then they wonder why there's over 100 million people that do not vote. Because they've been told time and again that their votes only matter if they vote for one of the right wing parties.