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liberal values
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this post was submitted on 25 Nov 2023
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Lefty Memes
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What is opposing a war?
People call themselves war opponents when they oppose invading Vietnam, which is good.
People also call themselves war opponents when they oppose Ukraine defending itself, which is bad. They support Russia invading Ukraine. They support wars except the ones when the US is invading.
nobody opposes to Ukraine defending itself.
Anti-War stance involves opposing Russia for invading Ukraine along with blood thirsty neoliberals like Victoria nuland who will sacrifice Ukrainian people to advance US strategic interest. They want this war to go on as long as they can make it go on. no price is too small.
No one buys what you're selling. Russia can end the war today, but they won't, because they're run by a literally evil kleptocratic dictator.
wow such a nuanced take you got there. I wish I had the intellectual capacity to engage with you.
We wish you did too. More informed dialog always benefits a conversation.
Most self-aware idiot.
The Ukrainians want to join the West than align with Russia. Conspiracy theories or not, the Ukrainians in the run-up to the Maidan revolution were agitated when then Ukrainian president Viktor Yanukovych reneged on the deal with the EU only to sign a deal with the Russians at the last minute. Unlikely that Ukrainians as a whole were somehow brainwashed and "coup" the government.
No one ever asked the Ukrainians what they want, haven't they? Or are we talking to Russian bots speaking on Ukrainians' behalf because they think Ukrainians are their little brothers who doesn't know any better? Ukraine is always "little Russia" for them, isn't it?
The majority do but nobody in a comments section should claim to speak for what Ukrainians want. We're finding out more and more about how peace may have been achievable as early as spring 2022 if Ukraine committed to not joining NATO. I don't claim to speak for the preferences of a nation, but you can see how this may change the context of the prolonging war. WW1 was expected to be short and quick, but when people saw what it had become we heard things like, "never again."
A lot of Ukrainians are escaping conscription right now just like my pacifist Ukrainian ancestors did. In my western country there's a whole network of support for these people, where you might know of someone organizing resources for Ukrainian families but never know the individuals themselves for secrecy. This isn't talked about in Western media very much because our countries are very pro-Ukraine joining NATO. Our media mostly talks about isolated incidents where Ukraine came out on top using Western weapons, and how supporting Ukraine with weapons is the only way to counter Putin's strategy. It's a cartoonish version of what's going on that people can feel invested in and good about, the material human situation is a different thing.
Ukraine did not even want to join NATO, they just want to join the EU. However, Russia, because they want to carve their own sphere of influence, think Ukraine joining the EU is tantamount to joining NATO.
Also, Russia invaded the entirety of Ukraine, why would Ukraine say they don't want to join NATO anymore after Russia occupied nearly half the country? And Putin's claim of stopping NATO expansion is obviously a load of crap when two nations just joined NATO! How would that exactly stop the alliance from expanding after invading another country? Even if Ukraine gave promise not to join NATO in spring 2022 (which, by the way, sounds implying demanding surrender from Ukraine), Finland and Sweden still would have joined after what Russia had just done.
Even so, the previous NATO summit did not even provide guarantee to Ukraine that they will be allowed to join! The narrative of Ukraine joining NATO from Russian perspective was not a forgone conclusion until Putin decided to annex Crimea, support the separatists and invade the rest of Ukraine. The very thing he feared from happening just happened because of his own hubris. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy of his own making!
There are many draft dodgers from Ukraine, not surprising there. Any wars have them, not that I would blame them personally. Nevertheless, most Ukrainian men and women of fighting age are still willing to fight.
The idea of Russia as a single irrational actor surrounded by rational actors just isn't accurate, it purports that there are no rational reasons for their actions and thus explains nothing. So you're left thinking what you've typed there, just no ability to explain the actions of Russia other than being dumbfounded by it in this cartoonish way. Ukraine is easy to rationalize because they're defending themselves as they have the right to, as well as entertain and control their own alliances as a sovereign nation does.
The rich soils and gas reserves of Ukraine are exploitable resources, and Russia is an imperialist actor competing for these resources with the EU and NATO, and Ukraine. The capitalist class in Russia want access to these resources and pressures the government to act in their interest, the government must support the economic arrangement that sustains their legitimacy and power. All the stuff you've said about how Putin is dumb may be completely true but ignores these structural causes of this conflict and assumes it's one man's irrational decisions that have caused all this. Seeing the structural causes here provides rational explanations for why not just this conflict, but why these types of conflicts occur. Competition between capitalists for who gets to exploit limited resources, yes it's that simple.
Nobody should be compelled to violence by a greater power than their own. Radical non-violence is a different mindset than that which sustains state powers and it takes a strong belief that another world is possible to follow it. People say it's not realistic while dying in the service of fairy tales, at least my fairy tale offers an alternative.
Yes, if the person subscribes to realpolitik/realist theory then what you say is correct. Which is why I said Russia wants to carve their own sphere of influence. As you mentioned, Ukraine is resource-rich. But even so, Russia is a huge country and they already have loads of resources under the sun. Having Ukraine's resources just adds to their collection.
But the most rational reason for Russian imperialism from the realist perspective is that Ukraine being in the West's influence would make Russia feel insecure and vulnerable. Ukraine's flatlands lead straight to the vital Russian oil supply in Caucasus-- the Volgograd gap as they call it. Even before the German invasion of the Soviet Union in World War II, many German planners proposed ro concentrate their forces in Ukraine to strike USSR. The Soviets have (incorrectly) anticipated this and put most of their armoured forces in Ukraine. But as history unfolded, the Germans focused straight to Moscow not Ukraine. Although the German forces in Ukraine in 1941 suffered heavy casualties because they faced the best Soviet forces there.
Let's face it though, the term "realism" and "realpolitik" is a misnomer and counter to "reality" and "rationality". The reality is that there is no reason as to why people across the world should not get along and try to usurp one another. There is no rational reason for it other than our un-evolved lizard brains trying to be competitive with one another.
The fields of dead russians are a grisly cartoon. I think you're the one with distorted views, personally.
Bullshit. Russia can end this war tomorrow by respecting the treaties it signed with Ukraine.
The Treaty on Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership between Ukraine and the Russian Federation was an agreement between Ukraine and Russia, signed in 1997, which fixed the principle of strategic partnership, the recognition of the inviolability of existing borders, and respect for territorial integrity and mutual commitment not to use its territory to harm the security of each other.
Russia invaded. Russia can leave. Otherwise Ukraine has every right to defend itself and it's allies are wise to arm it.