Overcrowding and interminable waits in Lampedusa, where migrants now outnumber residents (english.elpais.com)

submitted 1 year ago by boem@lemmy.world to c/europe@feddit.de

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[-] muelltonne@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

I totally don't like this headline: Yeah, there are a lot of migrants arriving in Lampedusa. But there are only 4500 people living there regularly and they are already getting outnumbered by tourists in the summer and that is really not a bit number of people.

[-] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz -1 points 1 year ago

Should just organize centers on the African side and immediately force people back there. Otherwise people will just stop coming

[-] tal@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

I strongly suspect that the vast majority of people in Lampedusa are not actually from Libya or whatever. Libya probably doesn't want random countries showing up and dumping people from random countries off on their beach, and countries don't really have a right to do that.

The normal convention, if you're gonna deport someone, is to deport people to their country of origin. Like, if some guy is from Sudan and he's illegally present in your country, he gets deported to Sudan.

Looking at the crowd, everyone there looks to be from sub-Saharan Africa, not North Africa.

[-] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 0 points 1 year ago

I was talking about setting up more of those asylum centers where people are housed and processed prior to possible entry into EU. Not sure if you're familiar with those.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago

Maybe some more in Rwanda?

[-] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 1 points 1 year ago

I was thinking closer. Rwanda seems logistically pretty hard.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk 2 points 1 year ago

They do seem to be open to taking people in though, as they did with the United Kingdom

[-] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago

I think a lot of places are if you offer enough money. Turkey has been doing it for a while. Countries where they launch off those boats seem to be more sensible location to them than all the way in Rwanda.

[-] agarorn@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

How would you organize such centers? Invade African countries?

[-] RaivoKulli@sopuli.xyz 2 points 1 year ago

I would go with the usual method of brokering deals with them. Seems like less hassle than your suggestion of straight up invading.

[+] Mopswasser@feddit.de -16 points 1 year ago

Since Libya has been thrown into absolute chaos and anarchy there seems to be no alternative but immediate and complete repatriation, as harsh as it sounds. At this rate, the EU as we know it won’t remain much longer.

[-] Kissaki@feddit.de 18 points 1 year ago

The EU is so much more than its immigration policy, so "the EU as we know it" is an irritating formulation and claim to me.

Distribution and moving are alternatives. It's not like sending back is the only option.

[-] Flax_vert@feddit.uk -3 points 1 year ago

Considering countries are already considering bans on freedom of speech to appease Muslims...

[+] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip -7 points 1 year ago

The EU as we know it is the EU with the Schengen area, free inter European movement and choice of residence. The ability to work and live anywhere in the Union. The Union without border controls. This is very much at risk due to the unwillingness to curb economic immigration.

The immigration crisis is caused by liberal dogma and capitalist desire to maintain poverty wages, which are being suppressed by the constant influx of desperate laborers who are willing to work for crumbs. The new arrivals are not properly integrated into their host society, neither on an economic nor a cultural level, causing subcultures to form that feel no longer affiliated with the greater society as a whole.

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 4 points 1 year ago

You realize that without the influence of workers the poverty will explode because noone can work for the pensions of all the old people?

Also parrallel societies are created by the main societies. You know the main societies where people with the same ideology as you hunt people in the streets for having the wrong skin colour, or looking muslim or jewish or gay.

The reactionaries and fascist deliberately hinder integration so they have a scapegoat to blame when they rob the people. But we already see, that immigrants and refugees are not enough so they revert back to attacking Jews and LGBT communities.

[-] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Im not opposed to immigration, but it is simply a fact of reality that we are doing it wrong, and the result is a re emerging right.

As for the reduction in labor force that would occur without a constant influx of desperate unskilled workers: the basic system of supply and demand would then cause wages to skyrocket, transferring wealth to the lower and middle class on a large scale in the short term, and spur technological advancements in automation to compensate, proper governmental regulation provided to prevent outsourcing.

This in turn will require a shift to full UBI and automation taxes to keep society functional, finally putting us on a track to a post-scarcity future.

In short, constant, unrestricted immigration does both the refugees facing growing resentment and the marginalized native lower class a disservice by helping the ruling class to keep their labor suppressed.

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

i think you are seperating cause and effect and give them one direction, where it is a multitude.

We are also doing immugration wrong because of the new power of the right. They want to make things worse, so they can give these as scapegoats. The German Fascist party AfD themselves said, that if it is bad for Germany it is good for them.

If you think supply and demand would just cause wages to rise and things to work out i have two bad news: The first is that the system is getting rigged against the workers, in particular by right and far right parties. They will increase work hours, the retirement age and introduce mandatory "social years" aka forced labor, before allowing their rich donors to have to pay significantly higher wages.

The second is that it doesnt matter if your wage doubles or triples nominally. With less laborers tu support the unproductive elders all we will see is a huge wage and price inflation, until the retirees are priced out of life. Money is just an exchange tool. If the input and outputs of the economy get disbalanced it doesnt matter how much money you assign to it. And all the automation we had so far went fuck all to benefit the workers. Instead it jsut made the rich more rich. That will not change.

Also i dont get why you talk about social issues and think that these are caused by immigration and not by a powerful capitalist elite that is proposing "market based solutions" only when it benefits them and keep the current status quo despite all economic reason. The issues remain the same in countries with low immigrataion and in the countries with higher immigration now they werent better befor either.

[-] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I definitely believe most of our problems are caused by capitalism and the ruling class working to keep things as they are (we in Germany have a similarly extreme wealth disparity between the extremely rich and everyone else as the United States for example).

Obvious from the leftist phrasing I am using, also not an afd voter. We need immigration to keep our societies functional, but we can’t keep doing it they way it happens now. It endangers the European project and stirs social unrest, in addition to the economic effects they have on the native lower class.

My suggestion would be a dual strategy of expanded border security with consequent repatriation of illegal immigrants, paired with the creation of large scale immigration preparation and processing centers in their countries of origin to facilitate a means of legal immigration that also prepares them for a life in a pluralist, socially liberal western society.

They should also provide dignified living standards and safety according to western standards. These centers could also provide access to language education, cultural introduction, or even teach/certify applicable skills that will make entrance into the new job market more successful.

Now I’m not saying I have all the answers or that my idea is necessarily the best, but I would draw a direct line from our decades of non negotiable open door policy to people secretly unhappy about this suddenly clamoring to vote for the one party that wants the opposite, now that the political climate has shifted far enough.

Immigration is an issue people care about emotionally, if it’s ultra rich assholes who also want to give themselves more money in the process, that matters only as an afterthought at best. Unless there is a non far right political option that is reconsidering their stance on immigration, it is essentially impossible to retrieve those angry single issue voters, even if there is plenty of proof that they are shooting themselves in the foot (just yesterday I saw a summary of AfD votes, where they voted against everything but tax cuts for the rich and welfare cuts for the poor).

[-] Armen12@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

"I'm not opposed"

"BUT"

You're opposed

[-] GregorGizeh@lemmy.zip 0 points 1 year ago

To the current no questions asked, no guidance provided, no integration required policy? Obviously. That’s not being opposed to immigration though. Feel free to read my other comments on this as well

[-] geissi@feddit.de 2 points 1 year ago

This is conflating so many things it's almost impossible to reply.

The EU as we know it is the EU with the Schengen area

EU and Schengen are different things.
There are Schengen countries that are not in the EU and EU members that are not in the Schengen zone.

unwillingness to curb economic immigration

Every 'expat' from the US, every Indian programmer, every EU citizen working in another EU country is an 'economic immigrant'.
That has nothing to do with Lampedusa.

capitalist desire to maintain poverty wages

What are you on about? Those people aren't even allowed to work.

The new arrivals are not properly integrated into their host society

Yes, they are kept in an overcrowded camp on a small Italian island.

[+] Mopswasser@feddit.de -11 points 1 year ago

The EU itself can and will break over this unless a long-term solution apt to keep social peace is found. All countries east of Germany, most prominently Poland and Hungary, will never take in African migrants. Simply won’t happen, they’d rather leave before being strong-armed into compliance. Leaving the EU is not even unthinkable for many Germans, anymore.

[-] taladar@feddit.de 16 points 1 year ago

Hungary leaving would actually be a benefit to the EU since having a dictator inside the EU is more of a problem than Hungary provides as a benefit.

Anyone who seriously considers leaving the EU just has to look at Britain to see what a disaster of an idea that turned out to be.

[+] Mopswasser@feddit.de -6 points 1 year ago

Talking to the English I know, their problems aren’t substantially different than ours (Germany). In any case, the UK being worse off is due to not being in the club. When there is no more club, a new institution shall emerge under a different premise.

[-] taladar@feddit.de 5 points 1 year ago

their problems aren’t substantially different than ours (Germany)

Except that we don't have to wait for many hours to go across the border, we can order most products within a day, even if they aren't shipped from our own country, our food doesn't rot before it reaches its destination if we try to export it, our manufacturers aren't closing down because their supply chain is disrupted,...

[-] tal@kbin.social 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

When there is no more club, a new institution shall emerge under a different premise.

Churchill went for "the United States of Europe" in his Zurich speech.

We must build a kind of United States of Europe

I am now going to say something that will astonish you. The first step in the recreation of the European Family must be a partnership between France and Germany. In this way only can France recover the moral and cultural leadership of Europe. There can be no revival of Europe without a spiritually great France and a spiritually great Germany. The structure of the United States of Europe, if well and truly built, will be such as to make the material strength of a single state less important. Small nations will count as much as large ones and gain their honour by their contribution to the common cause. The ancient states and principalities of Germany, freely joined together for mutual convenience in a federal system, might take their individual places among the United States of Europe.

But I must give you a warning. Time may be short. At present there is a breathing-space. The cannons have ceased firing. The fighting has stopped; but the dangers have not stopped. If we are to form the United States of Europe, or whatever name it may take, we must begin now.

I must now sum up the propositions which are before you. Our constant aim must be to build and fortify the strength of the United Nations Organization. Under and within that world concept we must recreate the European Family in a regional structure called, it may be, the United States of Europe. And the first practical step would be to form a Council of Europe. If at first all the States of Europe are not willing or able to join the Union, we must nevertheless proceed to assemble and combine those who will and those who can. The salvation of the common people of every race and of every land from war or servitude must be established on solid foundations and must be guarded by the readiness of all men and women to die rather than submit to tyranny. In all this urgent work, France and Germany must take the lead together. Great Britain, the British Commonwealth of Nations, mighty America and I trust Soviet Russia-for then indeed all would be well-must be the friends and sponsors of the new Europe and must champion its right to live and shine. Therefore I say to you: let Europe arise!

[-] tryptaminev@feddit.de 9 points 1 year ago

Yeah sure. The Poland that is receiving 10 billion € more from the Eu than it pays every year is going to leave over that. And then all the polish people working in other EU countries and all the factory workers, whose livelihood depends on exporting goods to other EU countries clapped.

You are delusional.

[-] tal@kbin.social -2 points 1 year ago

All countries east of Germany, most prominently Poland and Hungary, will never take in African migrants.

I mean, I don't think that most people migrating from Africa are trying to go to Poland and Hungary. They're migrating for wages, and they're gonna go wherever in the EU the wages are highest, which isn't Poland or Hungary.

this post was submitted on 19 Sep 2023

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