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this post was submitted on 15 Aug 2024
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Congratulations to the "good guys", you sacrificed thousands of Ukrainians but now you have funny memes about Kursk, so it was definitely worth it.
Fuck the imperialist russian state. They had an invasion coming the moment they invaded and annexed crimea.
Okay, you hate Russia.
But why do you hate Ukrainians? Why do we have to die for your grudge with Russia?
Ah yes, another lemmy.world account accusing me of spreading lies and yet not disproving any of them...
You haven't said anything to disprove, you've offered an idiotic opinion not a fact or anything you even claim to be a fact.
The deleted comment said that I'm lying. By definition it means the author thinks that I've said something that is not true, so it can be disproved (or at least one can provide an argument why it's likely not to be true).
Is there any reason that it is idiotic, other than not being aligned with western propaganda?
They're implying you're lying to yourself.
You keep saying everything like you have a solution but won't say what it is.
It's idiotic because no bully is going to stop bullying you because you stop fighting back especially when they want something you have.
Your fixing platitudes and dipshit idealism aren't helpful.
About what?
Already told you what the solution is.
The bully that bullies people in Ukraine is Zelensky though.
That cedeing to a country that openly plans to retake its former Soviet borders will somehow dispite all logic result in Russian withdrawal and lasting peace.
Now, you've said peace talks. No one has stopped those and it's no surprise fighting still has not stopped.
You sure it isn't the people literally blowing up Ukrainians. If Russia is so altruistic when then do they not see these "desperate prisoners of war" and give them mercy by withdrawimg from Ukraine since as your source says they are there killing civilians... Children... For a fucking political stunt.
If anything, the initial proposal was about Russia cedeing territory that it has captured (since 2022 invasion) to Ukraine, not the other way around.
No one has been doing any serious peace talks after the initial ones either.
Those as well, but you have to deal with more immediate problem first.
Where did I say that?
Ukraine does it as well.
Point to where it says cedeing territory.
Russia won't involve themselves without certain base demands that are never going to happen and remember they are invaders in a sovereign nation they started a war with to pressure NATO and pressure Ukraine out of joining NATO.
More immediate then dead kids, whatever would that be?
Your argument only works if they are at heart basically altruistic, otherwise simply stopping fighting back would simply result in a dramatic unopposed military defeat likely of the entire country so Ukraine could never join NATO. You know, that being their goal as per your sources.
Remind me, did Ukraine start the war? Would there be any civilian war casualties if there weren't a war?
Again, childish short-sighted bullshit.
People being kidnapped on the streets and being sent to die.
You have 4 subjects and that sentence doesn't make sense for any of them, can you try it again but you know .. better.
Changed one mistake from 'on' to 'and', now it's correct
That makes sense for one of those quotes, do you want to link them together into a coherent thought the people that aren't voices in your head can understand as the language known as English. Can we do that?
Let me know what exactly from my comment doesn't make sense.
I've just re-read and it seems to be well-formed.
Ok one by one.
Did you point to in the previous contextual comment where I said cede territory. I did not at that, I said they would have to cede to Russia as in relinquish sovereign authority by treaty.
That's not me, that's your source. Keep up with the conversation.
^ A page break so you don't sound like a fucking lunatic who can't separate two thought chains.
So these people, who you have zero firsthand accounts of are more important then not killing kids so a sovereign nation doesn't join NATO as is their right as an autonomous nation.
If I want you to not be such a fucking idiot can I invade your parents home kill your daughter and displace your grandparents? No? Then how the fuck do you excuse Russia doing the same.
I don't understand what you're saying before the "page break". You asked me to point to where it says Russia would cede territory to the Ukraine. It's in this quote:
"withdrawn to its prewar boundaries" - effectively cedeing the territory it captured back to Ukraine. It fits your definition of "to yield or grant typically by treaty".
I never "excused" Russia doing the same. You put words in my mouth again, just like you do for the rest of the conversation.
No, read the comment again. I asked you to point out where in my relevant comment the phrase "cede territory" exists. You keep quoting your source, I'm not asking for where in the greater universe the phrase exists but rather one specific and specified place. Please, point it out.
You are. Your dipshit theory is that the invader if offered zero resistance will simply stop invading out of the good of their heart even though but your source the only reason Russia is in the country killing kids is to pressure Ukraine to not join NATO.
If that isn't excusing murderous colonial fucking intent I don't know what is.
I kinda don't understand what are we even talking about now in this thread, but here is quote of you talking about cedeing.. I guess you're trying to say it wasn't about territory? OK then...
Please stop putting words in my mouth. Quote me where I said that.
You kinda don't understand most things. I'll make it simple, where in my words did I say "cede territory" in that comment. Point even to where the word territory appeared in it.
Ed: I'll help, this comment. https://lemmy.world/comment/11819058
Find "cede territory" or "territory" mentioned at all in that entire comment.
Your plan to stop the war is "stop grabbing people off the street", you say the military is almost all forced fighters and would then flee. If there is no more military how do you expect resistance to be offered? Magic, are we to call Merlin? Dog meat? Pray real hard? What?
Yep, that was dumb.
It's early morning for me and I've misunderstood your comment but deleted my reply a moment after sending it, cut me some slack :)
Nope, I don't cut fascists in any way you might want invite upon yourself boss.
It's funny that you call me a fascist, despite me arguing against fascism :)
Wikipedia:
How many of those points are not true about current Ukrainian government?
Those are true for almost every country at war, what nation did you "flee" to add we can go through it's war time stance.
It was a democracy until Russia installed a puppet and then invaded, those things tend to change a country.
I apologize, you might not be a fascist but you certainly are a cowardly little turncoat. You "flee" from your country then deign to call others cowards of they won't fight for what they believe in. I might remind you your cowardly ass can't seem to fight for what it nonsensically believes in.
Well, so you're not denying that it's fascist then. Nothing to argue about in that case :)
Again what nation did you flee to add we'll use it's historical war time stances to prove my point. So you agree you're a fascist now, bro choose a lane.
Isn't it obvious that it is Ukraine?
Nope didn't agree on that. Just pointed out that current Ukrainian government is fascist (and you didn't even try to argue against it), and I don't support it, so I guess I'm anti-fascist or something..
Now you can't read either, you're losing your higher functions sir.
You seem to be saying blah blah "I'm a dumb old Russia loving fascist."
My bad, misread it.
Not gonna de-anon myself, but don't worry, I would also argue against any other country that kidnaps people on the streets and forbids them to leave.
We all know it's Russia.
Pick literally any fucking nation no one is going to check.
Don't know how many of you "all" are there, but you're all unfortunately wrong :)
Although I don't see how that would change anything even if that were true... My family member did escape Ukraine through Russia, by going to the occupied territories. They chose not to stay there though :)
I feel it's true and I'm going to say it's logic so it must then be true if I use your logic.
It wouldn't change anything no, you're a Russian shill be it Belarus or Georgia.
Well, this can be easily disproved - you feeling it's true doesn't make it true.
Now, I argued that percentage of people fighting involuntarily is only raising - because otherwise they wouldn't resort to kidnappings.
Is there a flaw in this logic?
I mean I guess you can say it... Indeed, as a Ukrainian, for me Russia winning (or at least capturing the territory where I lived and where my family/friends live) is a preferable scenario, because in that case they will finally be able to leave and I wouldn't need to worry about them...
Can it though? Disprove it then.
It's based on one single secondhand account.... That's not a logical choice. Hundreds of thousands fighting... You have one account and not even a first hand account. What do you think the probability of something happening is if through years of digging you can find a single secondhand account. Just duh, guy, duh.
You aren't Ukrainian, even if your story is true you aren't Ukrainian any longer. You're by your own admission a coward who doesn't have pride enough to defend his country. They don't want you back.
I already did that though, by saying that your feelings don't make something true.
What do you mean by that? The sources I linked contain hundreds of videos with such cases..
No you didn't, prove is something you can prove what you're doing is claiming something proving it would be too offer em supporting evidence.
Videos of people getting grabbed off the street.... No official account, no one who has actually been grabbed talking about it.... Just videos of people being grabbed... I'm a warzone.... Where partisans have been getting grabbed off the street since day one..... And because you feel the draft is heavy handed you are simply taking a video at face value with zero actual evidence as to who was grabbed or why and that's somehow a logical choice to you.
Do you really expect Zelensky to officially say "we are kidnapping people from the streets so that fight for my regime"?.... Obviously it's not going to be official...
Some of them are with captions, so even if you don't understand Ukrainian/Russian you can watch them and hear the offenders saying they are from ТЦК (the "recruitment officers").
No I expect the crazy amount of journalists embedded with Ukrainian forces to uncover this incredibly high percentage of virtual slaves shackled and thrown into the trenches with merely a stick and their wits. If it's as high as you say it is at least one would speak up, maybe they will if it exists. But they haven't have they?
Yeah, they're armed military forces in local offices during war. They're going to do other jobs and it would be easier to grab a partisan by implying it might be a draft thing and not a "you're a fucking spy and saboteur, enjoy prison then the rope" thing.
Eh, despite all the evidence and logic (why else would they prevent people from leaving, if not to force them to fight???) you're saying they grab "partisans" instead of normal people that just want to live...
I don't understand what Ukrainians did to you that you hate us that much...
I'm saying they've been grabbing people off the street by random military dudes into band since day one. You see secondhand accounts and videos with no real context and jump to slave fighters.
You. Are. Not. Ukrainian. Even if your bullshit story is true, coward turncoats ain't get to call themselves Ukrainian especially while calling a wartime government authoritarian as though that's an insult to a country at war. Sniveling little Russian apologists don't get to call themselves Ukrainian, the best thing you get to call yourself is stateless because I hate to tell you they don't want cowards back. You had your moral choice and chose to save your neck and leave you don't get to stand here on the outside moralizing and hand wringing.
I don't think there's anything left to discuss with you, so I'm not going to be replying anymore.
You are a sadist who enjoys to see people suffering and dying. People who have never done anything bad to you or anyone else. You are a bad person. I hope that you experience the same fate you support for us.
Not everybody hates people as much as you do though, and that gives me a hope of a better future.
At least Romanians are kind to Ukrainians.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-65792384
Fleeing the conversation like you fled your country huh?
You're a Russian apologist that's too cowardly to defend his claimed country and instead sit and moralize about how it's Ukraines fault there's no peace. There is no us, you don't have a country. You're a redcoat in America circa 1775 you may have lived in America but you'd never be American.
You've given yourself away. Remind me who did Romania fight with and for in WW2? I'll give you a hint they were fascists with snazzy boots. So remind me again, if Romania isn't evil because of its wartime stance, how can you call the country you claim evil.
I don't enjoy people no, but I can empathize and I support Ukraine in fighting. I didn't support cowardly moralizing nitwits like you.
Yes, people dodging the draft take risks mostly because the regular border crossings are IN A FUCKING WARZONE WITHOUT MOST OF IT'S CROSSINGS.