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My problem with atheism (lemmy.world)
submitted 3 months ago by platypus_plumba@lemmy.world to c/atheism@lemmy.world
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First of all, I have more in common with atheists than religious people, so my intention isn't to come here and attack, I just want to hear your opinions. Maybe I'm wrong, I'd like to hear from you if I am. I'm just expressing here my perception of the movement and not actually what I consider to be facts.

My issue with atheism is that I think it establishes the lack of a God or gods as the truth. I do agree that the concept of a God is hard to believe logically, specially with all the incoherent arguments that religions have had in the past. But saying that there's no god with certainty is something I'm just not comfortable with. Science has taught us that being wrong is part of the process of progress. We're constantly learning things we didn't know about, confirming theories that seemed insane in their time. I feel like being open to the possibilities is a healthier mindset, as we barely understand reality.

In general, atheism feels too close minded, too attached to the current facts, which will probably be obsolete in a few centuries. I do agree with logical and rational thinking, but part of that is accepting how little we really know about reality, how what we considered truth in the past was wrong or more complex than we expected

I usually don't believe there is a god when the argument comes from religious people, because they have no evidence, but they could be right by chance.

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[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Yeah, I guess it really comes down to semantics.

Does "I don't believe" mean "I believe there is no god" or "I don't have a belief"? I think there is a very important distinction here. The first one says "based on my experience, I think it is unlikely there is a god". The second one says "I really don't believe anything about it, one way or the other".

My point targets the first one. The experience and evidence built by humans is just relatively insignificant... This is my problem with this line of thought. "There is no evidence" doesn't give any degree of confidence at all when it comes to this matter. There no evidence for most of the things that make reality exist, and yet here we are.

[-] Urist@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Atheists mean by the second that they find as little material basis for believing in god as in [insert whack theory here (teapot, spaghettimonster, etc.)]. We do make a judgement one way or the other, we say that our default position is not believing literally incredible things without proof.

The bar for what needs to be proven unless assumed false is higher the more that is claimed. Since god (especially to monotheistic denominations) are by definition the highest being claimed to exist, there is a huge burden of proof required for believing in it. Since there exists none, we choose to assume that the statement is false.

The reason we make all these stupid analogies is to hammer through the point that we, like everyone else, make a lot of assumptions that unproven things are false. The question of god is not really special in this regard, except for the historical and biological conditions that makes people inclined to believe in the fairytale absent of any good objective reason.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 0 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

You used "not believing" in your explanation. Does that mean "I have no belief" or does it mean "I believe it is false"?

Edit: ah ok, so you choose to believe it is false. Yeah, I can't agree with this. I do agree with having no belief at all. Assuming something is false because there is no evidence seems like a rushed conclusion to me. I understand the burden of proof falls on them, but the fact they don't have evidence doesn't make them wrong.

If you want to make conclusions about matters humans can barely comprehend based on your human comprehension, that would be something very human to do, so it's understandable.

[-] Urist@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 months ago

If you want to make conclusions about matters humans can barely comprehend

We do not know everything about the universe, sure, but to say it is outside our scope of comprehension is a stretch that I would argue follows from religious dogma: "God works in mysterious ways" and all that. In fact, the developments of the last centuries have shown that most of the things we thought were mysterious, we could actually explain with science.

Most religious people claim to know more about the world than atheists: After all, they are the ones having some sort of relationship with some ethereal/omnipotent being.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

It's not about God working in mysterious ways, it's about us having very little understanding of what constitutes reality. Like you know, this thing we're experiencing right now. We don't really understand it, or do you understand what's happening right now?

It is indeed a mystery because we have no idea how reality works. Even if God doesn't exist, reality is a mystery. We understand some things, sure, but we don't really understand the things that would let us answer "is there a creator?".

So saying "I don't believe in a creator because there's no evidence" just sounds so arrogant... As if humans had enough evidence to determine thst lack of evidence is good enough to reject something. The amount of evidence we have gathered about reality is probably extremely small compared to the evidence there is to gather.

[-] Urist@lemmy.ml 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I am not claiming to have some deeper knowledge of metaphysical reality than anyone else. On the contrary, this is precisely what religious people do. I base my understanding of reality based on what I can observe and interact with: the material reality.

This does not mean I cannot do imaginative things: I have a background in theoretical mathematics that does not really care about material reality other than the logical predicates that exist within it.

Actually, I am quite dumbfounded by the assumption of any symmetry of typical religious questions such as believing in a creator or not, because in my view any such kind of dichotomy presupposes an original creation in the first place: Why would there be? Because the bible or some other text written by humans says so?

If humanity never developed eyes, everything else remaining the same, we would never imagine seeing colors but we sure as hell would have religions. This is because as a tool for understanding the material world, and in my opinion of philosophy as well, religion is a creative and analytical show stopper.

this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2024
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