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Activist says trans people can’t trust Democrats to protect them anymore
(www.independent.co.uk)
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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2024
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I'm saying they're willing to throw them under the bus as soon as it gets difficult. Being silent while a few members do so explicitly isn't being an ally.
Infighting works to the GOPs advantage. If the DNC starts attacking the few members they have in office they will switch to the GOP. Giving the people who want to eradicate the trans community more power.
What difference does it make if they lose so hard anyway that they are politically impotent?
The difference is: to win you need as many people voting against the GOP as possible.
Since there won't be a major election for another two years, now seems like a perfect time to criticize the hell out of Democrats.
Those criticisms don’t disappear at election time. They get used as ammo by bad faith actors to convince voters to not vote/vote 3rd party/vote GOP.
Giving the GOP more power
So we're not allowed to criticize Democrats ever? How is that supposed to result in a functional political system?
No one said ever. The more criticism there is for democrats the lower their chances of winning will be. That’s a matter of fact. Do with it what you want.
Winning at the cost of our most fundamental values and freedoms is no true victory. As long as the Democrats continue to betray their progressive base for corporate donors they deserve all the criticism they receive. If your reason for voting is to keep the greater evil out of power then criticizing the lesser evil isn't going to change your mind. Only low-information voters might change their minds in response to hearing criticism of the Democrats, but no amount of finger-wagging is going to shield the Democrats from the consequences of their own actions.
So when it comes to trans rights you don’t feel there is any difference between the GOP being in power vs Democrats.
Of course there is a difference. The Democrats are a lesser evil by a pretty large margin, I don't dispute that. The point I'm making is that your constant chastisement of anyone who criticizes the Democrats from the left is counter-productive and betrays a deep insecurity in the merits of the party. When a party is unable to withstand criticism from its own base that's a problem with the party, not the base. You can blame voters all you want for the Democrats' loss, but it won't fix the problems the party has that led to this outcome. Criticism - and more importantly an adequate response to that criticism from the party itself - is necessary if the party is ever to recover.
FUD exists as a strategy because it works. All you have to do is criticize to sow apathy and reduce voter turnout.
Yes, the thing about FUD is you can't stop it, and by fighting it you only make it worse, especially when there are legitimate reasons to doubt. The best response to FUD is to make the criticism look stupid by proving it wrong with action. Trying to shut down criticism makes you look weak, and makes the criticism seem more valid, even when it isn't.
That doesn’t work in this scenario because democrats need more than the trans community to win elections. So they have to also win over voters that are anti trans.
And there it is. Let me ask you, how exactly do you think the Democrats should appeal to "anti-trans voters" without losing the trans and trans ally vote?
There’s no easy answer to that but until the trans community and their allies have a voting majority, it is a requirement that democrats appeal to both.
You're right that the answer isn't easy, but there is one and the Democrats have known it for some time, they're just not willing to do it. First, look at the driving force of anti-trans sentiment. It's economics. Trump and the like redirect the righteous anger people feel about their economic situation towards minorities by creating a narrative that is easy to understand and plays into pre-existing prejudices. The Democrats could do the same thing but direct the anger towards the wealthy instead of minorities. People have pre-existing prejudices towards "elites," and the narrative that the wealthy are the cause of your suffering has the advantage of being true. If the Democrats did this it wouldn't matter if they also go to bat for the trans community, because the average "anti-trans voter" doesn't actually care that much about trans issues, but are rather using the trans community as a stand-in to recieve their anger in the absence of a more compelling narrative.
Yeah, no. Economics isnt the driving force behind the anti-trans sentiment. That’s ridiculous
It's tied in to the broad cultural narrative that Republicans create and reinforce through their media, which is designed for the purpose of transforming economic anxiety into anger at minorities. The trans community can be said to be collateral, since the Republicans don't directly (keyword here) blame them for the state of the economy, but they represent the perception of "elites" who are culturally strange and different. The entire conservative narrative is about making the economic cultural. Bigotry is deliberately fueled by displaced anger. The anger must come from somewhere.
So if nobody is saying that, when do we get to criticize Democrats? Be specific.
I see we’ve learned nothing from the election. “I’m less shit than my opponent” is not a winning play.
Instead why don’t we ask why over a third of the electorate doesn’t bother voting? For either side.
What does this have to do with inflation aka the reason democrats lost?
Saying you need more votes than just the trans community and their allies to beat the GOP is not saying “I’m less shit than my opponent”.
I did, they said they don’t care about politics.
Move the goalposts if it makes you feel you’re forming a better argument; the by-line from your and prior comments was about infighting and criticism of the party, and that they don’t represent the people the party claims to cares about. Inflation wasn’t part of this discussion, but it honestly reinforces my point. “Tariffs bad” yes tariffs are bad, what is the party going to do about the real economic harm that voters feel from rising cost of living? Gaslight them some more? Point to line going up on the S&P as ‘progress’ and then wonder why working poor stay home every cycle? Maybe that’s why they’re disinterested in politics?
I haven’t moved the goalpost. The prior comments were talking about infighting and criticism of the party and your comment brought up the recent election specifically.
Democrats lost the recent election because of inflation experienced during Bidens term.
Infighting and criticism creates apathy that lowers voter turnout. It is a key component of FUD, an effective strategy that is used in online communities like this one.
Both are true.
Inflation is the prime reason cited by voters, not the electorate who registered to vote, and not the population as a whole.
Look at how Trump managed to drive turnout amongst non/low propensity voters, even at the cost of the more traditional Republican voters. Populism wielded by an autocratic demagogue is a cancer, but you don’t beat cancer with yet another neoliberal bandage atop the gaping wound caused by unchecked capitalism.
And it’s genuinely infuriating to see ostensible allies on the left bludgeon any criticism of the party as FUD - if I’m not permitted to post-mortem the DNC after a pathetic showing where they burned a billion dollars, with a B, and still lost all three (four even) branches of government, when will you accept any feedback? Are you seriously going to spend the next 2, 4, 6, etc years reinforcing a bubble devoid of criticism?
What 4 branches are you referring to?
Also, republicans won the majority of voters by constantly referring to democrats as being pro-lgbtq. To turn around and criticize the democrats for that is pretty shitty
I like the speed downvote within under a minute, and nitpicking whilst ignoring the substance of my comment, top tier wit on display
Honesty it’s a slip meaning the four houses (Senate, House, Executive, and Supreme Court) but given the way the media is fawning and exonerating Trump, the fourth branch also fits
Edit: Changing your post to add more substance after being called out is weak af, get better rhetoric skills. Saving for posterity bc you wolnt:
Did you forget to call timeout? Your comment had no substance to ignore. You’re making a lot of unfounded claims about what you think the entire population wants based on your feelings.
Don’t be dramatic. As soon as I posted I went back and added better wording. You’re acting like I changed something after you replied.
Ya you never answered my question. What 4 branches are you referring to?
You posted a half baked comment, then edited it after getting called out for having nothing but nitpicking. You got caught, and changed the substance of the comment from a reaction to one with an actual point after the fact - be an adult and own it; internet points have zero real world value, but rhetoric skills do matter offline.
I already answered this, dw the link isn’t a rickroll you can click though on a citation:
No I posted this:
Then added this immediately after hitting post/ before you posted:
I didn’t edit anything after your response only before. So it seems you are lying about that to make it look like I’m ninja editing my post. That says something about you.
You said this:
I asked which three (four even) branches of government are you referring to that were lost after “they burned a billion dollars” to stop fascism?
You responded with a wiki link about “Fourth branch of government” which doesn’t answer the question.
That’s what I saw in my inbox, and that’s the comment I replied to. Maybe don’t go off half baked if you want to avoid this scenario? Put the whole thought down or add more context from the beginning.
I’m beginning to perceive this as low effort trolling/point scoring without an argument behind it. I cited a reference and explained the mental slip meaning houses (Senate, House, Presidency, and Supreme Court) and the parallel answer of fourth branch is right there - you’re being very obtuse or didn’t read the link:
And given recent events, it fits:
You expect everyone on lemmy to stop using the edit button just to cater to you? This isn’t an editorial or an essay. There’s no problem with going back and adding to a comment. Maybe don’t lie about people changing their posts after you respond just because you can’t be bothered to read more than your inbox.
I was trying to get you to just state your argument in one place because I can’t see more than one comment while replying and your statement was changing because of your “mental slip”.
So what if Democrats spent a billion to stop fascism. What price do you put on stopping fascism? Due to inflation the cost of everything has gone up. Every year campaign spending is more than the previous year. Trump has foreign bot farms, billionaires that don’t want to be taxed by democrats and the republican propaganda machine campaigning for him for free. As long as this is true, democrats will have to spend more campaigning.
Senate only lost 4 seats same as it was 2019-2021. There have been much bigger swings in the past and it goes back and forth pretty consistently. This was the predicted outcome just based on history.
Democrats gained seats in the house this election and even though they didn’t get a majority, republicans were already struggling to get anything passed in the house before they lost seats this election. So democrats made it even harder for republicans with their campaign.
The Supreme Court wasn’t lost to republicans as a result of the democrats campaign. It was lost because of the timing of Ruth Bader Ginsburg’s death so either you don’t know what you’re talking about or you are intentionally lying about democrats losing the Supreme Court as a result of their campaign.
The only reason democrats lost the “fourth branch” is because news media/press is owned by billionaires and democrats campaigned on increasing corporate taxes, taxing billionaires and capital gains tax. All of which the wealthy class were fighting the entire time. Maybe you feel democrats should win over the “fourth branch” by giving billionaires more tax cuts like the republicans did.
So to summarize:
Senate-traded 4 seats the expected outcome based on history.
House of reps-net gain in seats
Supreme Court-has nothing to do with the 2024 campaign
“Fourth branch”-winning this means giving more tax cuts to the rich. Why would you want that?
Fundamentally disagree. Edit for typos or reword an existing sentence clarity, yes. Change the substance of a comment and not declare it, no. I left in my slip of house/branch because it was a genuine mistake. You’re playing point scoring and trying to twist that as me wriggling out of an error.
Like I said, the snippy response was the comment as it stood when I responded. You went back and changed it, and fortunately for you there’s no log history, just the ‘edited’ tag.
I’d rather we not play the loosing game of money = speech. You cannot outflank the right on immigration via border ‘crackdowns’ just as we average voters cannot outspend the donor class. Get money out of politics, legislate away Citizens United, or at the very minimum curtail SuperPACs and Dark Money. Because otherwise it’s the government of the highest bidder; Elon and crew just bought themselves seats at the table. Are you seriously arguing for autocratic oligopoly???
No, they’ve had some very public infighting between the ‘old guard’ Republicans and the new MAGAs turning over the applecart. Dems rolled over on trans issues (like the OOP) military spending, curtailing Israel in Palestine, Supreme Court reform, deficit limits, etc etc
Excuse me if I’m not excited about the ‘resistance’ coming from DC given their track record the last time Trump was in office, when he didn’t have unified government. Peeling off a few house seats should not be the victory lap you’re trying to spin this as, when the party shit on voters by gaslighting them about reality and got destroyed for it. The leadership has failed, and they are still clutching onto power whilst kicking out the ladder beneath them
We’ve always had a partisan press. What rolled backs the worst excesses of the original “America First” Hearst era yellow journalism was holding him to account for his tripe and editorializing reality - and when he broke from the entrenched corruption of Tammany Hall and became hostile to FDR. The Presidency is called the ‘bully pulpit’ for a reason, milquetoast neoliberalism is farrrr to comfortable with Fox News. I wonder why?
Ahh yes anyone who disagree must clearly be a disguised simp for billionaires. No possible way they might want a robust press freed from billionaire owners by enforcing anti-trust or walling off journalism from the profit motive that degrades public trust. Yessir you got me.
What I added changed the argument in no way whatsoever. I was upfront about the changes. I don’t know why you are clutching your pearls about it.
Again, what I added changed nothing. You seem to be doubling down after making a fool of yourself.
To “ Get money out of politics, legislate away Citizens United, or at the very minimum curtail SuperPACs and Dark Money” we have to win enough elections to do that. You can’t change shit with the GOP in office. Why does that need to be explained to you? You can’t possibly be arguing in good faith if I have to tell you that…
Citizens united is already in place. To undo it we have to win elections with it in place. Again that shouldn’t need to be explained.
Yeah that’s how a thin majority works. There are always a few people that vote against their party for both democrats and republicans. If democrats spent less on campaigning it could’ve been worse. Republicans could have a super majority and really do damage. But you’re too short sighted to see that.
What is this vague statement supposed to mean. What track record?
Wtf are you babbling about? How did they “shit on voters by gaslighting them about reality”? How did they “get destroyed”? You sound like you repeating things you’ve heard without understanding them enough to articulate what they mean.
Again, you aren’t making any sense. Democrats lost 1 election. It was a big one because of Trump and his fascist plans. But Biden inherited a weak economy and a pandemic. Voters have a short memory so we knew going it to it the odds were against democrats. Republicans were projected to win just based on history. You’re having a meltdown because democrats didn’t win when the odds were against them and suggesting they should’ve put in less effort by spending less.
He can’t do it without enough votes in senate. Again you’re showing you don’t know what you’re talking about by blaming democrats for not doing something that isn’t possible.
Republicans controlled senate at this time. Again you’re showing you don’t know what you’re talking about.
You admit Mitch blocked while in the same breath blaming democrats for Mitch’s actions. There is no way you are arguing in good faith. This has to be trolling.
Yeah so many other plays that you can’t mention because they don’t exist. If there were other viable options democrats would’ve tried them because democrats want that seat in the SC. Or are you pushing some conspiracy theory that democrats wanted republicans to get that seat in the SC? If so, put down the koolaid.
You’re the one blaming democrats for losing the favor of billionaire media owners by trying to tax them…
I’m exhausted with you dude. You argue vaguely and demand I take a position, then do a line by line breakdown, repeating cyclical arguments about money and elections with zero citations of your own. They’ve HAD power since Citizens United. The reality is that though bills are introduced and filibustered (cynically flip-flopping on filibuster rules when in/out of power) they don’t make finance reform a campaign issue. They’ve had chances at alternate voting structures - and they’ve proven via bad faith messaging that they (correctly) view it as a threat to their duopoly hegemony.
The party tried to gaslight voters about the economy, whilst everyone watched their wages freeze amid price increases. New jobs and record S&P growth is a press pool talking point, but a loser in the election. Trump’s own shit record in 2016-2020 should have featured much more prominently, alongside a presentation of a new alternative to the changed political and economic landscape. Liz Cheney is not that. “Tax credits for small businesses” is not that.
I am tired of team blue constantly fundraising and vote gathering on the message of “this is the most consequential election ever” whilst categorically refusing to take all the actions available to them, and leaving tools on the table for Republican realpolitik. The Dems let them run the whole table of options like shutdowns, poison pill amendments, playing outside the chessboard, and filibusters, whilst meekly pushing back.
Ginsburg’s replacement should have been a huge battle, after Reid kept the filibuster and set himself up. Barrett’s rubber stamp approval should have equally been a bigger fight, not protest walking out of the Judiciary Committee before a vote while the Republicans still have quorum majority. Abortion should have been codified into law numerous times in the last 50 years when Dems held a majority - baseline protections are popular, and the Republicans are feeling some of that backlash right now for their fawning to religious fundamentalism.
If this truly is the fight against fascism, why aren’t they fighting on every aspect and angle they can? The MAGAs have an inverse apocalyptic tone and fight dirty, on and off Capitol Hill.
I haven’t made any claims that aren’t inherently true.
Who is they? Given the context of our discussion I assume you’re referring to democrats. But your first link shows that Democrats voted for the bill to end dark money and republicans voted to block it with a dead even 49 to 49 vote. Even Joe Biden endorsed the bill to end dark money.
Filibustering is a double edge sword. It is bad when you are trying to pass legislation but good when you are trying to block legislation. Even Bernie uses filibustering. So of course there will be flip flopping depending on the situation. Ending filibustering would allow Trump to pass a lot more legislation. That’s not a conspiracy it’s called foresight.
You’re 3rd link makes it pretty clear the Democratic Party was only opposed to that bill because it would allow non-democrats to choose primary candidates. So with enough bad actors, Trump or a GOP member could be elected as the democratic candidate and there would be no 2nd party then. That bill was obviously made in bad faith. Maybe you didn’t read your own link?
They didn’t gaslight anyone. Wages consistently grew throughout the last 4 years. Why lie about that? When Biden took office there were supply chain gaps from Trump not handling Covid. Biden worked to fix them and corporations used them as an excuse to price gouge. Democrats supported unions which raised wages. Corporations increased price gouging to cancel it out. You’re shilling for corporate price gougers by scapegoating the democrats that increased wages when you ignore the fact that those wage increases were cancelled out by more corporate price gouging. Or flat out lie and claim the wage increases never happened.
Not sure what you’re trying to say here.
What does Liz Cheney have to do with the economy? Or are you just repeating the leftist talking point that Liz Cheney hurt Harris’ election. There is no polling or any evidence to support that talking point. It is an obvious attempt to convince democrats to not work with republicans and decrease their chances of winning elections and passing legislation. Never Trumpers can vote too. Why throw away their votes? Because bad faith actors want democrats to throw away votes.
Harris campaigned on much more than that and as we are about to see when Trump takes office, all the bad faith complaints you are making towards democrats will be worse under Trump. But you only have complaints for democrats which proves you don’t really care about the things you are complaining about. It’s all in bad faith.
What does this even mean? Do you think Supreme Court justices are elected via wrestling matches? It’s a vote. Before the vote even happens they know if they have enough votes to win or not. That shouldn’t need to be explained. If republicans have the majority of votes they choose the next Supreme Court Justice. Democrats need more seats to choose the justices which means winning more elections. Which they are less likely to do with people like yourself spreading misinformation about them. So again it is clear you are arguing in bad faith.
This is a single voter issue, which means that if dems codify it into law they lose votes from anti-choice voters that would otherwise vote dem. As we saw with recent elections, republicans won after taking away abortion rights. They arent “feeling some of that backlash” at all. Again, your suggestion would result in less votes and more losses, empowering fascism even more but maybe that’s the goal of your bad faith arguments.
Because fighting dirty leads to more dirty fighting by normalizing it. Trumps dirty politics lost him the 2020 election. The only reason dems barely lost the 2024 election is because of the high inflation during Bidens term and bad faith actors like yourself spreading misinformation about democrats.
Again with the “bad faith” projection, whilst cynically trying to sneak past falsehoods lol
You’re all over the map. Like I said, Dems tried to reform campaign finance, but got filibustered. Filibuster bad, but also filibuster good somehow? Filibuster is a tool of the minority - ie a directly undemocratic tool. It was undemocratic when Thurmond tried to hold back the hands of the clock and slow the Civil Rights act, it was undemocratic when Republicans blocked campaign finance reform, as it was undemocratic when Mitch blocked Garland.
You read it, but didn’t comprehend it. The party conflated alternative voting with anti-democratic principles. Open primaries are not a rare thing, but DNC opposition to alternative voting isn’t even though it would peel off more center/moderates who trend republican and isolate extremist voices. Crying about “$hill Stein” whilst demanding fealty and refusing to build broad coalitions (coalitions which delivered strong Democratic electoral results and unified government in the Obama years) is inherently anti-democratic.
Again, projection and parroting the party line without proof. Corporations did price gouge and make inflation pervasive and persistent, but inflationary causes are real.
Because they effectively didn’t. You can’t in one sentence recognize the role of inflation, then link to a graph championing a single dollar/hr increase while inflation was 2-9% year on year. Wages grew in raw dollars, but were outpaced by inflation. Yet here you are harping about how line went up and therefore economy strong.
I’m not even going to bother with a retort to the rest of your comment, because that’s hat genuinely bad faith argument looks like. I listed some political and extra-political activities that the Dems failed to do or take and you reduce that to “it’s not a wrestling match”.
From your comments, you’re clearly one of the moderates/liberals who are far more comfortable working with the Republican Party than daring to glance left, even as it costs the Dems traditionally reliable voting blocs who for generations came out faithfully for the Democrat party. Trump swung the Republicans to populism, the Democrats reacted by pulling toward liberal and moderate elites and middle class. Show the people (not the donor class) what a democracy that works for them could look like, and they might come back.
Filibustering is a double edge sword. It is bad when you are trying to pass legislation but good when you are trying to block legislation. Even Bernie uses filibustering. So of course there will be flip flopping depending on the situation. Ending filibustering would allow Trump to pass a lot more legislation. That’s not a conspiracy it’s called foresight.
Filibustering can be ended using cloture with 60 votes. So apparently you consider voting “anti-democratic”.
I read it, comprehended it, explained it to you, then you posted a link supporting my argument. You should read your own sources sometime:
Another bad faith argument. I pointed out that democrats raised wages and called out price gouging. Which is literally everything they can do. You show that you understand wages went up and that you understand corporate price gouging was responsible for canceling out those wage increases, then in the same breath you scape goat democrats for the actions of corporate price gougers. Bad. Faith.
You have nothing to say because your comments can’t get any more ridiculous than they have already been.
Sorry to break your stereotype of me but I would love for our government to move further left. But I live in reality so I know that for that to happen, voters need to move further left first and as we’ve seen with the 2024 election, voters moved to the right.
Comfort has nothing to do with it. In order to win elections we have to appeal to more than the left. In order to pass legislation and fix things we have to work with more than just the left. That’s reality.
Turning our backs on democrats and scapegoating them for the actions of Trump, the GOP and corporations, weakens their chances of winning elections and passing legislation that is in our best interest.
I like how you claim dems are losing traditionally reliable voting blocs by using an article that says the opposite.
Trump swung the republicans to conspiracies and hate that ostracized a lot of republicans. Democrats reacted by trying to earn those votes to prevent fascism from winning another term. The donor class already own our government. The 2024 election may have been our last chance at changing that. But too many people like yourself spread misinformation about the Democratic Party and convinced voters to fuck around. Now we have to find out.
You do know that post history is public, right? And yours reads like a DNC bootlicker who exclusively comments in political threads whilst using the entire logical fallacies toolbox to take down heterodox lefties who refuse the “country tracked right” narrative that exonerates the DNC’s failure to read the room economically whilst refusing to get off the corpo/donor money teat. Limiting dark money is a step, even if cynically performative because it hurts the RNC more than them, but they still (like you it seems) accept the core premise of Citizens United that money does belong in politics.
You either build, or destroy. You choice is pretty clear imo.
Fuckin lol, X to doubt. This you?
And there it is people. Dare not dream of better, accept the scraps your political masters demand you accept with gratitude.
Like I said. I want our government to move left. The only difference between me and you is you aren’t actually trying to improve anything. You think that by spreading misinformation about democrats (all of which I called out and you’ve had no response to) you will somehow move the Democratic Party left. At least that’s the bad faith argument. In reality what you are doing is handing the government over to the GOP by doing their work for them. But you know that because you’ve made it pretty clear that you’re doing it intentionally.
Right and as I’ve shown, you’re spreading misinformation about democrats and in the process you’re helping the GOP. So it’s pretty clear you’re not building anything.
Yeah, and this was also me from the same post, sharing sources from the article in the meme:
Gee, I wonder why you would leave out the context. Then again, you don’t even read your own sources so why would you read mine.
And like I said, I am tired of this blowhard v blowhard retort trading walls of text. I’m doing this for free, and you’re clearly committed to your path.
I will though take back the build or destroy, because while I disagree with your premises and approach that we can intelligentsia and market research our way out of authoritarianism/fascism by making moderate appeals, you are building outside Lemmy, albeit your online comments is only serving to reinforce alienation and the navel gazing elites perception by dunking on leftists/progressives. Not everyone who disagrees is a troll/accelerationist - I went to your comments to understand your positions better, and saw the pervasive infantilizing tone, nitpicking, and picking fights without standing tall on anything until challenged. And you doggedly took any challenge to the bitter argumentative end, like we have here, unless your opponent gives up.
I will however push back on your mischaracterization of me as a troll/GOP shill however - I’m challenging the party’s comfortable narratives because they refuse any meaningful feedback except a bi-yearly electoral acid test. I want them to do better electorally and deny the GOP any space, and that starts with recognizing problems, criticism of errors and mistakes - especially repeated mistakes, shutting out the voice of the people in primaries, and turf wars over district races. “My way or the highway” is a road to ruin, unless you’re willing to wield the fascist tools necessary to enforce that political elitist reality. Build a coalition by including the wings and enforcing that unity from the moderate Dems to support the whole party (and vice versa), not throwing trans/gay/migrant/etc rights under the bus because messaging basic human decent to D+0 districts is harder than it should be.
That’s the work I expect the party to do if it wants to be a big-tent left wing party that domineers over the left wing political landscape. If it’s more comfortable ceding space rightward to the Overton window, because leftists ‘have no other choice than us’ don’t be surprised when voters see the cynicism and abandon the party. Like over 10 million of them did recently, and gave us Trump again. Otherwise reform the voting structure to permit a coalition that works together, instead of enforcing orthodoxy.