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Spicy question maybe, but I'm interested in your takes.

Personally, I think there's some major issues with at least the terminology of the 2 phase model of lower/higher stage communism or socialism/communism as the terms are used in classical theory. Specifically the 'lower stage' or 'socialism' term is problematic.

In the age of revision and after the success of counterrevolution it has become clear that there is in fact a transitional phase leading up to the classical transitional phase. Societies did not jump from developed capitalism to socialism immediately and even the states that arguably did were forced to roll back some of the core tenets of 'socialism' as it is described in Marx, Engels and Lenin. Namely no private ownership of the means of production and no exploitation of man by man.

To ultras this just means countries following this path aren't socialist. So then China isn't, Cuba isn't, no country still is really and those of us claiming they are then have to be revisionists. And to be fair, if you're dogmatic you can make that point going from the source material. China itself recognizes this inconsistency, thus not seeing itself at the stage of socialism. Yet it's a socialist state. But then what do we actually mean by 'socialism' when we use the term like this? Just a dictatorship of the proletariat? Any country in the process of building socialism?

That question comes up all the time and confuses the fuck out of people, because the term is either not applied consistently or as it's defined is lacking. I think discourse in the communist movement and about AES would profit immensely if we had a more consistent definition or usage of the term or a better defined concept of what that transition to socialism is and how we should call it.

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[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml -2 points 1 year ago

I think there's a lot of difficulty in MLism discussing social relations that are relevant to revolution and reaction but aren't directly explicitly related to the means of production. Intersectionality does a good job of exposing those relations, but MLism struggles to incorporate these relations into a coherent framework that can easily be picked up.

Thus, we have confusion among MLs about how to express the division between the white labor aristocracy and the proles and lumpen of color. We have confusion about how to name oppressor and oppressed and discuss how oppression reproduces society. We struggle to incorporate the insights of Fanon and Freire without opening the door to revisionism. We do our best to do this, but MLism in my experience lacks the language and potential the concepts to handle these other relations gracefully.

If anyone has a good way of navigating what I am describing, I would be super grateful for some pointers.

[-] ihaveibs@lemmygrad.ml 4 points 1 year ago

As someone that just took class that utilized intersectionality as a framework, I heavily disagree. Intersectionality is confusing and lacking real foundational principles (i.e. it lacks a materialist perspective) that can interpret the world in real, actionable ways. It is basically like playing whack-a-mole, where each "intersection" requires its own individual investigation and understanding rather than belonging to an overarching understanding of the world. I interpret your critique as saying MLs generally lack a good understanding of class beyond Marx and Lenin (or maybe more generally, 19th and 20th century Europe) and how to incorporate decolonial ideas into class concepts, which I completely agree with. I am also part of the problem! But I don't think this is something that other MLs haven't analyzed. I think its a tendency of white labor aristocrats that are overrepresented in Western ML spaces (again, I am part of the problem). If anyone has good resources that bring class analysis into our modern world, I would also appreciate that!

I now realize I may be misinterpreting what you were saying about intersectionality, as I do think it is successful in at least bringing these topics into the forefront as worthy of serious analysis. I am just really frustrated with it right now since it caused me headaches lol

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml -1 points 1 year ago

I think that's the point I'm making. Intersectionality and decolonialism have demonstrated that they are required for sustainable revolution, but MLism can't easily incorporate it.

I think various treatments of intersectionality fall to your critique, but I think perhaps your positions of privilege make intersectionality more difficult to feel the power of. There's a ton of power in understanding that storytelling is valid form of historical evidence. There's a ton of power in understanding that your privileges play a similar role to class interests in propagating and resisting ideologies and in determining aggregate behavior. It's critical to see this when you read Fanon and you realize that there exist both proletariat and slaves in the same global world system and that the proletariat depends on the exploitation of slaves in maintaining their ability to reproduce their lives, and that these concepts interpermeate and the lines are terribly blurry. When you look into colonial America and you see indentured servants that are white and sharecroppers that are black, it's insufficient to treat these two group identically due to ideology and superstructure. What do we call that using MLism? As far as I know, we can't call them separate classes because they have the same relations to the means of production, but they have different relations to each other and to the state and to the bourgeoisie.

[-] ihaveibs@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Yeah, I think I'm reacting to the capital I "Intersectionality" reproduced in the bowels of liberal academia that is designed to explicitly be incompatible with materialism. I totally hear what you are saying and appreciate the critique. I know I have blind spots, so if you know of any resources particularly about the necessity of intersectionality and decolonialism for sustainable revolution it would be much appreciated.

[-] freagle@lemmygrad.ml 1 points 1 year ago

Honestly, just keep working with black and indigenous sources. Red Nation Podcast has really helped me understand the criticality of indigenous knowledge to the survival of society and the incommensurability of indigenous interests with settler interests. Read Settlers, Decolonization is not a Metaphor, and Wretched of the Earth. If you've read them already, read Fanon again, and read more Fanon.

What I found through engaging these texts is that not only do I have a blindspot as a white settler, these communities know I have a blind spot and they have stopped trying to convince us. They are talking with each other about what to do. So listening to it as a form of self crit really opened my eyes to the reality that the only way forward is national sovereignty, a la Lenin, applied to indigenous nations AND African diaspora as a nation, and that not only is this the only way forward but the global majority knows it and will force it on settler populations once hegemonic collapses.

[-] ihaveibs@lemmygrad.ml 2 points 1 year ago

Word, thanks comrade!

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this post was submitted on 26 Jun 2023
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