Nah man, Americans have values. Freedom, perseverance, independence, self expression. It's just that we have utterly failed to uphold those values in our actions. Even in the beginning, talking about slavery being terrible but still allowing it for political reasons right at the founding.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 9 points 4 weeks ago* (last edited 4 weeks ago) (1 children)

Those values only really served as a way for the ruling class that founded America to justify itself. They weren't genuine.

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world -2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

I'm talking about the shared cultural values of the society we have today, views shared by most Americans. Most Americans like free speech. Most Americans like liberty. Et cetera and so on. These are things that are part of our culture. You aren't any less of a person for recognizing that these are values that are held by this culture.

I am also saying that despite culturally sharing in these values, our society also fails to actually support them in very big ways.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 6 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

And I am telling you that the cultural aspects came from a desire from the ruling class to support freedom for Capitalists to do what they want, and morally justify it. That's why these values never seem to actually be supported, just gestured towards.

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world 2 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

So you admit that those cultural aspects are actually there. Which are failed when they are used to support the ruling class.

Which was my point.

[–] Cowbee@lemmy.ml 5 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

They succeed in their purpose, to obscure the systems that uphold the ruling class. These cultural values didn't appear out of thin air, but deliberately to preserve the wealthy Capitalists that founded the country.

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

That is irrelevant to my point, however true it may be

[–] BrainInABox@lemmy.ml 12 points 4 weeks ago

The purpose of a system is what it does

[–] AES_Enjoyer@reddthat.com 8 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

"Espouses but fails to uphold" sounds more like negligence to me. Negligence would be allowing fascism through inaction (like democrat administration). But the US does far worse than that (funding genocide and propping up fascism elsewhere)

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world -1 points 4 weeks ago (1 children)

Nah, I liked how I phrased it. We've been failing to uphold our ideals since the beginning, even Thomas Jefferson was a hypocrite who hated slavery but sure as hell did a lot of it.

[–] dessalines@lemmy.ml 7 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

Jefferson didn't hate slavery, he even pledged support for France against Haiti's slave rebellion.

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

Something something ugly black spot idk

[–] UltraGiGaGigantic@lemmy.ml 4 points 3 weeks ago (1 children)

All men are created equal

IS SLAVE STATE

Always has been

[–] agent_nycto@lemmy.world 1 points 3 weeks ago

Yeah dawg that's my point. We have the ideal of equality but also failed to actually follow through with it.