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Intent matters, as does the overall goal.
Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas, the internationally recognized terrorist organisation that openly wants Jews and Israelis wiped off the face of the earth, who raped and murdered 1000+ innocent people at a music festival. That’s it. They’re not trying to wipe out the Palestinian population.
You seem to repeat the same argument over and over. I believe you know you're wrong. Israel can try to achieve this goal without making an entire area hell on earth for 2 million people. You know this. Amnesty international knows this. The UN knows this. The ICJ knows this.
Also, I want to point out a fundamental difference in our arguments.
You say:
Hamas wants to commit Genocide against the jewish people. This gives Israel the right to do whatever it takes to "take out Hamas" (whatever that means?), with however much collateral damage they want.
I say: Israel is commiting genocide against the Palestinian People. Nothing more. I do not, at all, see this as a reason for Hamas to wipe out the entirety of IDF killing however many innocent Israelis it takes. Do you understand? The many crimes of the IDF (which are facts, look up Israeli war crimes if you do not believe me) does not warrant the killing and starvation of Israeli children in the thousands.
Nor does the crimes of Hamas warrant the killing and starvation of Arab children in the thousands. Obviously.
Am I supposed to come up with new arguments every time? Israel are trying to eliminate Hamas. That’s the goal. Sorry if I keep repeating it. Maybe I’m repeating it because you refuse to acknowledge it?
No, I say that Hamas started the war and Israel are trying to finish it.
I say Israel aren’t committing a genocide because their intent is only to stop an internationally recognised terrorist organisation.
I will try to acknowledge your arguments. From my understanding, your main point is the following:
Israel is trying to eliminate Hamas and nothing else. Because Hamas is very dangerous and evil, the actions of the IDF in Gaza is justified. Is that a reasonable summary?
I disagree on many parts of that argument, as you know.
Now, why do we disagree?
It seems to me that intent matters much to you. I believe this might be where our views differ the most. I realize that assuming that Israel is acting in good faith was a flaw in my argumentation, as I do not at all believe that. I will not try to argue under that assumption any more.
Let's purely look at intent. Again, here we have a very different views. You claim (correct me if I'm wrong): Israel has no intent of doing anything but changing the power structure in Gaza in order to get rid of evil forces. Israel treats evey innocent human with the samr repsect and decency. Israel intends to let Gazans keep living in Gaza and has no plan of taking over Gaza. Israel has every intent to let Gazan infrastructure, homes, and buildings be undamaged as far as possible. Israel wants to make life as good as possible for Gazans, and has no intention to make it unneccsary difficult. Israel does not want the population of Gaza to be displaced to another country. Israel would avoid killing innocent Arabs to the same extent as they would avoid killing innocent Jews. So far correct?
I claim the exact opposite, more or less. I believe that the evidence of what is happening in Gaza strongly indicates that I am correct.
To convince me that Israel is acting in good faith, you have to provide arguments for that. A statement from Israel is not an argument at all.
I hope I haven't misrepresented your standpoints too much.
Yes, intent matters. Hamas, the internationally recognised terrorist organisation, committed terrorist act atrocities against Israelis and started this war. Israel rightfully will not stop until Hamas are not only removed from power in Gaza, but completely eliminated. That’s the “good faith” that Israel are acting in. If they just wanted to commit genocide they would have razed the whole place long ago.
That’s really all that needs to be pointed out - if they wanted to kill them all, they would have long ago. They have the means and opportunity to do so. They haven’t and they aren’t. Why do you think they’d draw it out while facing all this backlash? They’d just wipe them from the face of the earth and go “yeh we did it, what are you gonna do about it?”.
Again zero factual arguments to support your/their claims. You have just chosen to blindly believe, it seems.
You have zero factual arguments to support your claim lol.
Israel’s leaders are on record many, many times saying that the end game is Hamas to be eliminated. You choose not to believe them because you want there to be a genocide happening so you can be outraged about it.
Again - if a genocide was on the menu, this war would have been over months ago because Gaza would be a crater and everyone in there would be dead. Israel clearly don’t care about people saying they’re committing a genocide when they’re not, so if they did want to they’d just do it.
Bro read my comments, the factual evidence is there right in front of you. If you refuse to click the links I provide and read my arguments, that's on you.
And yes, I do not trust Israeli leaders words, I only trust their actions. You cannot convince me to trust their words by saying that I should. Factual evidence (social media bots, fake hamas websites, other lies, see: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misinformation_in_the_Gaza_war, etc) strongly support the claim that Israel utilities lies and deception frequently, and I thus do not consider them trustworthy.
Facts don't care about your feelings or blind beliefs.
That Israel has the firepower to completely obliterate Gaza in two days does not mean that anything less than that is fine.
The irony of you saying this is hilarious.
You aren't saying facts, you're saying opinions - most of which are "i think x, y, z" and "i don't believe x when they say y".
You missed the point. If Israel want to commit genocide against Palestinians, and don't care about the world accusing them of genocide, they would just do it. Why would they draw it out for months/years? If they're going to have everyone sanctioning them and shouting "Genocide!" at them, they'd just get it over and done with and move on. Drawing it out over months/years would just make it worse for them. It makes no sense.
You want it to be a genocide. You're looking for articles that support your view. You're looking for "facts" that support your view. You're not looking at it with an impartial eye and what is actually happening, you're looking at it with a "they're committing genocide so everything they do is with an end goal of genocide" lens.
This has been the least worthwhile discussion I've had in a long time, and I discuss with people I disagree with fairly often (including those who support Israel). Most of them manage to change my view somewhat, or at least provide a new perspective. You didn't, sadly.
(However I very much appreciate you wanting to discuss, even though the discussion quality could be improved significantly)