MeanwhileOnGrad
"Oh, this is calamity! Calamity! Oh no, he's on the floor!"
Welcome to MoG!
Meanwhile On Grad
Documenting hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse. Memes are welcome!
What is a Tankie?
Alternatively, a detailed blog post about Tankies.
(caution of biased source)
Basic Rules:
Sh.itjust.works Instance rules apply! If you are from other instances, please be mindful of the rules. — Basically, don't be a dick.
Hate-Speech — You should be familiar with this one already; practically all instances have the same rules on hate speech.
Apologia — (Using the Modern terminology for Apologia) No Defending, Denying, Justifying, Bolstering, or Differentiating authoritarian acts or endeavours, whether be a Pro-CCP viewpoint, Stalinism, Islamic Terrorism or any variation of Tankie Ideology.
Revisionism — No downplaying or denying atrocities past and present. Calling Tankies shills, foreign/federal agents, or bots also falls under this rule. Extremists exist. They are real. Do not call them shills or fake users as it handwaves their extremism.
Tankies can explain their views but may be criticised or attacked for them. Any slight infraction on the rules above will immediately earn a warning and possibly a ban.
Off-topic Discussion — Do not discuss unrelated topics to the point of derailing the thread. Stay focused on the direct content of the post as opposed to arguing.
You'll be warned if you're violating the instance and community rules. Continuing poor behaviour after being warned will result in a ban or removal of your comments. Bans typically only last 24 hours, but each subsequent infraction will double the amount. Depending on the content, the ban time may be increased. You may request an unban at any time.
view the rest of the comments
From Wikipedia:
Zionism was about the creation of Israel, a democracy. Democracy is supposed to be for everyone who lives there, including Palestinians, who were living under authoritarian governance before that point. It is imperative that you understand power and control to understand the importance of democracy <- leftists are fucking failing right here.
Israel has not been a good steward of the endeavor, but it was nevertheless the goal. It was messy. People had to get along to make it work. The Palestinians of that time refused to coexist peacefully with the Jews because of antisemitism, and they left. The surrounding countries like Jordan refused to let them in, even when that was their previous country. They decided to attack Israel and lost multiple wars. They refused to share land that was not theirs before, even if it was their ancestral homeland, because there was no democracy. The land belonged to its rulers.
I personally think Israel was doing better than say, the USA with our indigenous peoples, until recent years when the rise of far right authoritarianism threw the democracy out of whack and the worst people there are now in control.
The genocide in Gaza is an unprecedented travesty and Israel must be held to account. But who has the right to redefine the word 'Zionism' when it's the word used by this group of people to define their effort to save themselves? The notion that it was a racist or colonial movement is propaganda. The Jews have faced legitimate oppression everywhere they have tried to exist and arrived in the region after fleeing persecution in Europe and elsewhere. As the word has lessened in usage, antisemitic forces have coopted it and turned it into a slur.
Anti-Zionists are at best ignorant of the importance of democracy and at worst, antisemitic. Pick a new word.
The West's biggest mistake was extending free speech to the non-free world via the internet, allowing us to propagandize ourselves by listening to people across the world who don't understand what democracy is. Or in the case of China, a regime that has been able to provide a high enough standard of living that it provides the illusion that they have it better. But trust me, they want democracy.
'I stole your house and land to create a utopia. You could have understood my vision and agreed to my very generous offer of being second class citizens. But since you didn't, I will kill you and your family. You are failing to understand big-word and bigger-word.'
Fuck off, zcolonialism apologist.
No zionism was an supermasist ideology that want to force a state on local population and kick out the local people
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
Sounds like an elitist; not a supremacist.
It is supermasism
It's a fact that zionists believe that they have more right to the land because their ancestors used to live there 2000 years ago over the local popuation who never left. It's a fact that israel as a zionist state is dominating palestinians. The best example are illegal settlers terrorists are acting violently on palestinians with the idf protection
You're missing the entire point, likely in bad faith. Here's the deal: democracy allows the people to decide their fate. Israel was a project to bring democracy to the middle east. Everything else is a distraction by authoritarian forces across the world. They need it to fail because democracy itself is a threat to their hold on power.
Palestinians should have (in the past at least) worked to be a part of Israel. It was their chance at freedom and they refused to share it with Jews. Now that doesn't matter because fascism rose, Israel fucked up, and now the world must do for the Palestinians what it did for the Jews after the Holocaust.
You are the bad actor. Democracy is internal has nothing to do with the fact that Zionists immigrant forced a state on the local population and did ethnic cleansing in 48. Stop pretending that Zionism was not a supremacist ideology
Nobody is tricked by your disingenuous mention of democracy to deflect and trying to making it about jews vs Arabs.
Arab suggested a one state solution with equal rights to everybody, Israel never did . A one state where west bankers and Gazan become citizens on Israel would go against the fundamental of Zionism which is a Jewish state
Who were ruled by whom?
Zionists being emigrants is a fact through, palestinian being the local population is a fact. Don't conflate zionists with jews in general, i know there always was some jews who never left the land, doesn't make thr europeen zionists having right to force the state on thrm
Don't conflate "local population" with "free people," which they could have been had they the foresight to work through the shitty situation. They would be Jordanians today. Idk much about modern Jordan because it's not a democracy and doesn't have a free press. It has a king. A ruler. An authoritarian. Meanwhile Arabs inside Israel have representation and are working up and out of the apartheid that very much is real and problematic. You'd have to go to Jordan to ask the local population if they would prefer democracy over their king.
I won't let you deflect. Palestinians are local population, Zionists immigrants came to the land and said you have you give us part of your land so we can build a state majoritarily for us. How don't you realize how ridiculous this is ?
You keep talking about democracy while Israel has normalized relation with many autocratic countries. The Jordan you criticize are intercepting missiles for Israel have some self respect and stop being ungrateful
Of course they emigrated. And they purchased the land. You think Herzl is all Jews. You're antisemitic.
Stop with your mental gymnastic . Just because you buy lands in another place doesn't give you the right to force a state on local population . They only had 9% and wanted the local population to give up 55% of the land but ended up controlling whole Palestine like predicted by Zionists. Also European settlers did similar tricks against first nation in America. The treaties first nation signed was technically legal but was immoral and everybody agree that genocide against them was terrible
Herzl’s Diary, 12 June 1895
And like i already say some Palestinian suggested a one state solution with equal right for every why Zionists refuse such a logical solution?
The international community agree that settlements in west bank is illegal if Israel truly believe in Palestine right to a state and believe in peace they wouldn't build them, they wouldn't sponsor settler terrorism
Are you aware that Arabs also thought the same of Jews? You'll find that almost all parties in the region share the same views and hatred.
No they didn't and stop deflecting we are talking about zionism right now
They most certainly did.
He has little influence, he is insignificant most arabs sided with the allies and fought nazi germany including volunteering18k palestinians. Now back to the topic why don't you admit that zionism was always about stesling local people land by herzl admission?
Herzl had little influence
Lmao! They really tried to sneak in "Hitler had little influence"
Lol he is the creator of modern zionism. What about former israeli prime ministers, will you also tell me they are also insignificant?
Oh, you just said that the Grand Mufti, Amin al-Husseini, has little influence and is insignificant, so I'm just doing the same until you admit fault.
Ben Gurion has little influence and is insignificant.
Why are you still denying that modern zionism was a supermasist based on herzl admission.
Husseni asked arabs to support hitler so If he had that much influence most arabs would have sided with the axis but no they was with the allies
Do you think some Arabs sided with the Axis and Nazi Germany?
A minority while zionists imigrants plan was always to force a state on local population. There was a lot of opposition from jews about zionism and still are
The people who protect the leadership of Israel from any consequences regardless of how they behave and provide them the tools to do whatever they deem necessary, including blatant ethnic cleansing and genocide, call themselves Zionist. It might not be fair to redefine a word, but those commiting genocide and those defending and enabling genocide, use it for themselves. Opposition meets them where they stand. The burden should not be on those opposing the genocide, what you call tragedy, to come up with a new word. You are redefining anti-new-Zionism as Anti-Semitism. Just as unhelpful as redefining Zionism. How about we work to stop the genocide and then focus on the definition of Zionism later?
I agree with you, but it's also important to note that disguising anti-semitism as anti-zionism isn't anything new. Neo-Nazis often use zionist as a dog whistle to mean Jew prior to the current conflict.
Thank you for helping me sort through the noise further.
I believe that many leaders in Israel are well aware of this and are using that as a shield. Such use literally lays the ground work for actual Anti-Semitism. If Zionism has nothing to do with what's happening in Gaza and the West Bank, then far, far, far more effort needs to go into denying the Zionism of war criminals commiting a genocide and hiding behind language than criticizing those who use those same war criminals' language to oppose them.
I fight this fight knowing how tone deaf it is at this moment in time because you and the internet at large don't seem to understand how ancient and how pervasive antisemitism is. I agree with your points, but argue the problem you're touching is far right authoritarianism rising worldwide. It will turn all democracies into the worst fascist states. The USA is absolutely enabling genocide, a word I use without hesitation, but the history is clear that Jews have never NOT been under direct threat of genocide. My biggest fear in October 7 was that they would lose themselves to right wing madness the way we did after 9/11. And that's what happened. Far-right ideology is the problem. Always. Not the Jews.
Honestly, your words only make me less supportive of your perceived "fight".
Nah, fuck off shill.
Israelis are openly calling for blood, openly murdering children.
i see you haven't criticized the history stated here and only been critical of the current israelis calling for gaza children's blood openly
you must agree with the historical accuracy here and have problems tying your own shoe laces
Yeah, lots of them are. Fuck them. Would you like to see ALL Israeli punished or murdered for this? Because there's a word for that.
@amino@lemmy.blahaj.zone
Elaborate please