this post was submitted on 02 Sep 2025
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bullshit; of course there is. it is earned: fascists, billionaires, the IOF, the white house administration, stephen miller specifically... none of them are human beings the same way you and I are human beings. nazi lives don't matter.
taps sign
You can't use the fascism to beat the fascism without using fascistic tools and being fascistic yourself. Kinda gross yo
shooting someone who's going to murder you is self defense, not murder. get out with that "oh but then you'd be no different" bullshit. yes you would. it is different.
this is why libs always fucking lose.
And this is why fascism will forever perpetuate. Because you're too much of a coward to recognize the fact that humans can do terrible, terrible things. You want to live in a fantasy world where they are not part of this race because if they aren't then you don't have to confront the reality that they are just like you but with a different brain chemistry and different decisions.
I'm not saying you won't be any better. I'm saying that if they're so horrific because of the things they say and do then you are an utter coward to say the same things about them that they would about you. A complete coward who is terrified to confront reality and channels that into the same bitter hatred that they have.
I can beat them without resorting to the same playbook. You apparently seem to believe you need a Hitler to kill a Hitler, like it's perfectly fine to do the terrible thing as long as you're the one doing the terrible thing. Disgusting.
I said coward but in truth you're just closer to a child. No understanding of the world, filled with deep fear and lashing out at anything they cannot understand.
Respond if you want or don't. I'll never see a word you say.
I think you could be a bit more generous in your interpretation of other peoples ideas. Unless this is a bit, in which case I think you got lost in it. I think you make a good point, its def a supportable argument, and I don't really agree with pyre. The way you confront them though, call them a coward, a child, you're like attacking their humanity, their autonomy and freedom. Granted it was partially a negative response to "this is why libs always lose" which is also not a great way to engage online.
I just want to draw attention to how quickly that devolved it was like one or two exchanges before you start infantalizing and displacing onto them. If you really think the other person is "a child" then maybe you would be inclined to educate them? Also I wonder if you would be willing to reckon with the fact that on certain issues there is a good chance that there are many many people who are much more advanced than you are, who might view your short fuse and quickness to retreat into a self defined humanist camp, as a sign of immaturity too.
I'm not saying I'm immune or better, I've committed similar, in fact much worse examples in like the past 3 weeks or so. So maybe I'm pointing out a speck with a beam in my own eye. But I think there is a tendency to mischaracterize other peoples positions as completely arbitrary and like the worst possible interpretation, in order to make our own arguments seem stronger. In my experience this can mean we are actually insecure in our own positions, and responding to feelings of insecurity, with expressions of indignance. So in my own case I'm trying to improve things about how to carry out discussions. There's no guardrails other than shitty moderation (jk love you mods), so we have to set our own
To add to what @Stamets@lemmy.world said, calling them a child or a coward is a reference to their current state or behavior, not their intrinsic nature, which can absolutely be called out. If you can call out Nazis for being Nazis, you can call out cowards for being cowards. They can both choose to be otherwise.
I am done treating people with childrens gloves, I am done trying to educate, I am done trying to speak to someone calmly when they're being an antagonistic little twerp, and I am certainly not going to keep taking the high road as that's what you're arguing. I've been taking the high road for my entire life. You know where it got me?
My mother using me as a picture prop but never actually treating me like a person, no gifts, no hugs, no love until she disowned me for being gay. My foster family using me and ignoring every word I said while pretending to pay attention. The dude I love doing the same thing to me. My best friend leaving me high and dry last week with a $700 bill to figure out last second, having to rely on the generosity of the friends I do not remotely deserve so I could keep existing because she, like everyone else, has never given a singular fuck about me or anything I say. The only times I've ever had anyone at least listen to me instead of dismiss it outright is when I start slapping back. Because someone might hate me but they'll remember me and they'll at least remember the point I made. And if they want to continue being a bitter little bitch after having some common sense slapped into them, then fine. They weren't worth the time in the first place to bother with. But anyone else with half a brain cell will just go "Okay well Stamets is a dick but he's not wrong." And fuck it. I am a dick. I am bitter and angry and frustrated and furious and lonely and tired and I do not have any patience left anymore, any hope left anymore or any willpower to not tell someone they're being an idiot when they're being an idiot. Am I going to die alone for it? Sure but I knew that anyway so who gives a shit.
So if you want to take the high road, fine. It's a great view, don't get me wrong but the only people who set up shop there are either people who believe themselves to be above it all and therefore beyond naive, like I was, or people who've paid for their spot and can ignore everything below them because they own a helicopter. No business is done. It's just residential.
And because tone via text is hard to elaborate, the message should be read with the tone of emotional and physical exhaustion but not malice, rage or anything towards you personally.
Very fair! Earlier this year I got involved with a social movement that was incredibly exhausting. And yeah I was trying to do outreach, education, all that good shit. The people who really needed to be gotten through to just would not listen to anybody about anything. I was only ever able to organize some folx who the movement rejected, or who rejected that movement. And even then, I think when those ppl needed me I didn't have the energy to help because I was so exhausted by peoples stubborn ignorance.
Anyway, really sorry to hear about your struggles. I've known people who got kicked out of their parents for being who they are, and having to fend for themselves. It takes a huge toll. But it sounds like you've got a really great support system too.
In any case, sorry if I came off lecture-y. Thanks for sharing your insights
No one's saying defense isn't ever necessary. Not dehumanizing our enemies doesn’t mean we have to sit down and sing kumbayah with them. It means that we can't ever lose sight of the fact that even the worst evils still come from humanity.
If you fail to recognize that fascists are human, if you perceive them as nothing more than cartoon villains, then you will fail to recognize when humans become fascists. Your coworker, your uncle, your friends, you'll fail to see the signs in front of you. Or worse, you'll fail to see it in yourself when you start using their own tools and tell yourself it's alright when you do it.
again you're conflating why they dehumanize and why i do. they do it because of racism and bigotry, when they say not human they literally mean not the same species. when i say it it's because I've seen them doing inhuman deeds gleefully. it does not mean they are a different species, it means they don't deserve the dignity and respect than humans do. again "if you do it you're no different" is bullshit.
Alright, and now you've dehumanized them. Now what? How do you solve the problem that is Nazis? Billionaires? Landlords? Omnivores? Breeders? You agree some or all of these aren't really human, right? So what's off the table for you with respect to your inhuman group of choice? What's the limit for others who, like you, think one or all of these groups are inhuman? And what do you think the end point is? Remember, genocide was the Final Solution, not the First Solution.
It's only self-defense if the threat is legitimate and not already neutralized. Even if a murderer has expressed their intent to escape and kill again, if they are already captured and constrained executing them is wrong.
Some deaths in the process of neutralizing threats may be unavoidable and just. That could include resistance or revolution. But, no, you don't get to justly kill anyone based on their mere willingness to kill you.
then please accept my condolences for the unjust, cruel murder of the poor UnitedHealth CEO, i really hope the same won't happen to every IOF soldier who's very humanely playing a game of shooting children in the genitals for fun today, because shooting off limbs day was yesterday.
I certainly think it is possible to argue neither of those threats were/are neutralized. But that may say more about me than I really want to impose on anyone else.
"No War But Class War" ?
then i don't know what you're arguing here, which threat i mentioned was neutralized?
My argument is that self-defense is more narrow than your definition. At the point in the conversation when we were exchanging definitions of that term, no specific acts had been mentioned in the thread/post.
The threat of that particular CEO has now been neutralized. It was arguably legitimate at the time he was shot, tho.
There's nothing in the middle of the road except a yellow line and road kill. Fascism has a way of forcing people into one of three camps, perpetrators, saviors, and victims. Bystanders will eventually be pulled into one of those groups and you'll have to choose to join the perpetrators, or the savior, or be forced to be a victim. There is no center anymore, the only good fascist is a dead fascist.
You are correct. This comment section is full of the worst moral relativist, shitty- and this is a phrase I never thought I’d use unironically- virtue signaling.
I agree. Their actions dehumanize them. I do not. Their actions render them unworthy of the basic kindnesses given to humans.
Agreed.