this post was submitted on 04 Oct 2025
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Yeah, splitting up isn't a great thing right now. Let's team up together and fight the nazis.
It's almost like some people here desperately want to create division in the left.
Glad to see it backfiring on one post.
Im willing to work with anyone who has a real backbone and is acturally willing to fight fascism. People who reject all fascism even a compromised fascism lite.
Shitlibs can't do anything but blame the left for their failures and deny we exist. And suck Nazi dick. They can fall in line or fuck off–if a shitlib wants to volunteer as a warm body for something I'm doing without trying to subvert it I won't turn them away, but I doubt that would happen–i have seen zero interest in coalitions or opposing fascism.
Please feel free to prove me wrong.
What they were trying to say is now is not the time to divide eachother
Cool maybe they should fall in line then.
OR maybe you should team up on the incremental progress for now, and then show them why more work is needed. You don't need to be the divisive one.
Who is the incremental progress team? I see the Democrats who pretend to be the incremental progress team, but are really decremental, and the Republicans who are openly decremental.
Weird how 'compromise to a common end' always means 'do my thing and ignore that other thing and also ignore what you wanted'.
Why are you pretending like that's what they said? One concept is a progression of the same idea but taken beyond the other one - you're just claiming it's not because you want to be divisive and pretend like you're holding the morally correct position to trigger people.
It's transparent and like... nobody seems to be taking the bait, so why are you even still trying?
And this is why you don't have allies.
Oh noooo, guys we lost primrosepath, better pack it in, movement's over
What movement? Pretending like you want real change and acting like you give a shit while mocking people that you disagree with online?
I mean sure you can disagree with whatever you think the values are, but are you really trying to present it like liberalism isn't a social movement? Why would the whole divisive OP meme even exist if that weren't at least widely perceived to be the case?
Liberalism presently isn't a serious movement... sorry to break this to you. The current presentation of liberalism is a hollow shell of the actual ideology - it's branding.
So it is a social movement, just not one you agree with. Why? What ideology is it even supposed to be a hollow shell of?
No, you misunderstand. I agree with the vast majority of liberal principles, people are just masquerading with its labelling to gatekeep progress.
I'm more liberal than the most notable liberals. Why? Because the term has been co-opted.
Look I'm going to be honest, I'm pretty confused as to what your point is. You've started this by implying my ideology is only 'mocking people I disagree with', then now you're professing you align with the principles of liberal social movements.
Non-mocking question I swear: Is this because the term 'liberal' is often used to describe Democrats (obviously including by themselves)?
Liberalism is as dead as Latin. Suppose I could speak Latin fluently and knew a few people who also could - it doesn't make it any more alive.
Liberalism amounts to vaguely supporting good things while watching democracy and consent-based governance die - and doing absolutely nothing meaningful to change the trajectory. Self-identified liberals blaming/shaming/mocking individuals to the left of them (who are closer ideologically to them than they realize) is what is dividing the left and is an extremely common behavior in online discourse.
This entire thing started with a post about leftists mocking liberals, though. Like, no, how are you agreeing with the vast majority of liberal principals and then claiming the ideology is dead -- Are you just talking about the use of the term "liberal" to describe groups adhering to sets of principals, because that's what I think you're saying and I'm still very confused as to how you've conflated the label of a group with the abstract set of concepts that underpin the values of said groups.
This is like claiming communism is dead because the soviets were a failure. Sure, a case could be made about the only major experiments with it being disasters, but it'd still be ridiculous to assert that because of it there's no value to be found in superficially similar movements (like, for example, socialism / most leftist movements).
No, it started with an image of a social media post where leftists identify the supposed contrast between the two ideologies. With liberals advocating for those that work 40 hours a week to not live in poverty, and leftists advocating for everyone to be given the ingredients to live a dignified life.
Liberals can support the latter and directly create that change with leftists. It isn't in conflict with liberalism. The fact that modern-day liberals see that as being in conflict with their ideology and then disowning anyone more radical or socialist than them is the cause of the rift and shows that liberalism is not quite what it's supposed to be in practice.
Why are you trying to reframe this? It presents the
liberalargument as being "No one working 40 hours a week should live in poverty" and theleftistideology as "No one should live in poverty at all". The two are in no way inherently in conflict, and even the title "leftism is bestism" isn't in this case particularly wrong since the goal of pretty much every liberal movement is at very least broad social protections (a concept so non-controversial that even the democrats give it legislative support).But why then is liberalism dead? Why is a leftist striking out against a liberal for not supporting their position somehow acceptable in the face of an entire comment section of liberals advocating incremental progress and the 40-hour-week-no-poverty idea as a step in a progressive change? Why are you behaving like there's people advocating it to stop at 40-hour-week-no-poverty, when nobody is doing that?
It's a very loose and unintentional reframing... I apologize for not being on a proper keyboard to type it out exactly. We both can see what the image said.
It's dead in the same way as libertarianism is. Libertarianism, originally coined to describe communists/socialists and used by anarchists, was co-opted by capitalists and its meaning adjusted (completely flipped) to serve their interests.
Liberalism wasn't redefined in quite the same way, it just became a useless label that serves capitalist interests. The uncorrupted liberal position would be to work towards equality for all now, not just for those that work 40 hours a week.
I'm pretty sure most modern-day liberals don't believe that poverty will be eliminated in their lifetimes despite the means being present to do so already. This is why leftists see liberals as gatekeeping progress. Liberals supporting status quo politicians who compromise with fascists isn't helping either.
OKAY, thank you. The issue here is indeed that, while you interpret "Liberal"/"Liberalism" to be specifically speaking towards the major liberal political parties (like the Dems), that's not the common usage (neither is your interpretation of 'libertarianism' being dead - look at the popularity of PCM and the traditional use of 'libertarianism' there as an example of how the term has retained it's original meaning across broad society)
I don't disagree that the democrats are deeply lacking in progressive... everything... but to come and present your interpretation that "liberals" are all part of a dead ideology because you've let conservatives co-opt the term as a negative group pronoun and that this is justification to decry how all 'liberals' are gatekeeping progress is ridiculous. You're as much a liberal as I am, not as part of the "liberals in gubment" but as part of a liberal social movement, and a person that agrees with liberal ideas. Good grief, we're on the same side. The only reason you think there's an ideological divide between us is that you keep asserting that there is one.
(Side note, but do you realize you're lowkey advocating against improving society here? Why even try for a small improvement, that's corrupted thinking, if you can't do everything there's no point in doing anything!)
No, I'm pretty sure I understand the key tenets and principles of undiluted liberalism. I do not see the Democrats as being liberal (not even close) and I feel that most people who presently roleplay as being a liberal do not understand the ideology or philosophy surrounding liberalism.
The situation with the liberal label is akin to most Christians apparently not knowing what Matthew 25 says - or for that matter effectively not really knowing anything that Jesus said, taught, or stood for in the New Testament. It's due to propaganda that Jesus' teachings are diluted and manipulated to fuel certain agendas - the same goes for liberalism.
False, not my argument. I don't see anyone truly fighting for anything to meaningfully improve society - who is in power or hopeful to be in power (besides fringe DSA members).
We can advocate for what is within our means - poverty could end tomorrow if we flipped a switch. It isn't a pipe dream. It could also end for third-world countries in a relatively short amount of time if we supported them in their sovereignty instead of exploiting them in every way possible to sustain first-world society e.g. by providing them reparations for lording over their land and natural resources or reparations for us benefiting from slavery (including child slavery) past and present.
Again, misunderstanding my arguments and positions. In regards to addressing poverty, if the only thing liberals think is currently reasonable or realistic to advocate for is to provide only those that work 40 hours a week with a decent standard of living, that is gatekeeping progress.
We can advocate for more than that right now. Advocating for more is not in conflict with core liberal principles, it's in conflict with a broken democracy that nobody is interested in saving because it would require facing the massive moneyed influences controlling politics in addition to the big bad Republicans and not compromising on literally everything to the point that absolutely nothing gets done (besides regressive policy that strongly overshadows or reverses progressive policy).
You're acknowledging there's a distinction right there, though. You're openly having to distinguish between the term as a concept and the term as you're using it, a description for a specific group. That's my point, that you're using it to describe a specific group instead of as a label applied to social concepts. You literally are doing this in the sentence explaining how you're not doing this. Like. I don't know what I could possibly say that would be a better example than this right here. This is all I have been saying about this point.
Sure, but my overall point is that they're not doing that, you're claiming that they are. The 'liberal' position being expressed in this thread, and the one I've seen expressed everywhere else, is that we should get to where nobody should live in poverty. But, because the big "turn off poverty" switch doesn't actually exist, and because (to extend the metaphor) there's an entire army of chuds standing under that switch making damn sure we don't flip it, we should take what we can get now to reduce the suffering in the world by just a little while we continue to fight for the big goals.
It's the classic "win the battle first, then you can win the war" concept but extended to political movements.
Paraphrasing them to highlight how they could be easily extrapolated, there's no misunderstanding here.
Again, I do understand the nuances of the term liberal as a personal identity/label/grouping and as a descriptor for the ideology or e.g. socially liberal policies.
You're right to say that we're not enemies and that we ideologically and generally want the same things in the end.
I disagree. We should identify the problem and propose the solution. Democracy is broken and we need to fix it with democracy. All mainstream news is entertainment/propaganda and is doing our society disservice by polarizing us against each other - so we create and incentivize fair media (that delineates fact from opinion and provides relevant context) that highlights all viewpoints equally. Poverty isn't desirable for society and we already have the means to raise everybody up from poverty... and so forth.
You're arguing that you're actually being strategic to advocate for a lesser policy that doesn't even approach a solution, but the reality is that it's weakening your ideal in practice and our position at the negotiating table because Republicans (and the people who use them for their gain) won't stand for even that lever being pulled.
I want to see Republicans squirm while they advocate for people being homeless, destitute, and without health care. Truly. It would be enlightening for many. People largely do not take joy in seeing others suffer - they are being conditioned to accept or ignore their suffering because they are also suffering and don't want to lose what they worked hard to achieve.
Thank you. It gets seriously exhausting trying to explain that sometimes.
"We should identify the problem and propose the solution" is not at all in conflict with getting the 40-hours-a-week concept passed. It's the idea that we can't do two things at once, that we can't both advocate for the ultimate goals while passing what can be passed currently, that I'm taking issue with. Why is that being presented as the liberal position? I honestly can't understand where it comes from - nobody I know of thinks that way, but it's constantly what I'm accused of believing when I've been identified as being the wrong sort of liberal. It's deeply insulting to have your positions dictated to you based solely off the use of a term with multiple potential interpretations like this, and it's just flat-out wrong.
We can't do everything we should in society, because half of society opposes us rhetorically and ideologically. Some people get too entrenched in that mindset, the democrats are an especially good example, but there's nothing inherent about political realism that prevents political idealism from co-existing with it.
Why are we even fighting over this, I'll happily support you while you strive for the big grand goals, are you wiling to support me while I trying to get the little things done along the way? I'm not going to not support the big grand goals either way, to be clear. This isn't quid-pro-quo, just curiosity.
The political reality is that we can't even achieve what is realistic to even extremely jaded and cynical people. That's a major problem and we desperately need a solution to properly address it. It's distressing and extremely frustrating - it pushes many to hopelessness or worse. It likely pushes many into political disenfranchisement or political apathy.
Identity politics and polarization online is rampant. I apologize if I offended you or misrepresented your position or intentions throughout this exchange. The thing with labels is that it invites stereotyping. People attach their personal experiences and beliefs onto labels. I do my best to see the person I'm talking to past the labels.
I understand the strategy you are proposing, but our democracy is fucking dead if we don't start talking sense to real people. That means proposing solutions, perhaps compromising at times; but really doing our best to see things clearly and helping others to do the same (regardless of political polarization or labels).
...but that isn't true. 77~ million people voted for Trump and there are over 340 million people in the US (and approximately 290 million US citizens). Many of those 77 million people that voted for Trump would think twice after seeing Matthew 25...
I'll support you, 100% - with all of my heart. If you messaged me out of the blue and told me how I can directly support a lever being pulled or someone attempting to pull a lever, I'd do my best to do my part in any way that I can.
Will I support those complicit in genocide, who laugh at the notion of having a socialist or progressive perspective if elected? No, I'd rather die (I'm not kidding) than exist in a reality where I consent to any of that with a vote and I'm not sorry if you feel that makes me your enemy. There's already not much keeping me here and my health isn't very good, some project blame onto me for my decision to abstain (and they do frequently), but I don't regret a damn thing because I wouldn't be able to live with myself if I voted to support the state in question defending itself against women and children, and defending itself by conquering essentially the entire middle east in their openly expressed plans well before the election.
I believe that our political system is poisoning society to change. I'll gladly support and vote for somebody who doesn't laugh at the idea of being a progressive and proposes real change, even extremely watered-down change and very little of it, to boot - as long as they are genuinely and wholeheartedly going to work towards it and make a difference.
Some of the people you see that are dumping on any incremental progress are pro-authoritarian, accelerationists. I believe most of those ones are bad actors/bots though. Any real leftist is wanting to help people however they can/actively helping those in their communities.
People aren't dumping on incremental progress, largely. The issue is that there has been nobody in power meaningfully working on or achieving that incremental progress. The Democrats just gaslight everybody into thinking they are working towards the incremental progress that we hope for and expect from them, while being blind to the problems and solutions.
Progressives are the ones who are disenfranchised, alienated, and ratfucked - it's time for you to realize that.
Can you kindly provide some examples of what you’re talking about?
of a thing not happening? um, sure; here i guess.
Great! Can you please explain some of the specific things you are doing? You mentioned this in your previous comment. Specifically the part about coalitions and such.
No, sorry.
Cool! Was this just a lie then?
Probably not. Guess we'll never know.
Well, you still have ample chance to amend yourself and speak from the heart, if that’s something important to you.
I'm not in the habbit of explaining or doxxing myself too hard, sorry.
If you show up, I'll probably offer you something to do. If you don't, I suppose we'll never meet.
You won’t convince many people if you aren’t willing to explain yourself; how can someone trust one that isn’t willing to meet them halfway? I encourage you to not say who you are, but what you stand for.
I think we can both agree that authoritarians are bad, and that what we are seeing now from the right is pushes for power by authoritarians.
Okay. Abstractly I'm for personal autonomy proliferation of possibilities and the cultivation/nurturing/flourishing of the potential of all intelligence–ai if that ever exists, whales, visiting aliens if that happens, and whatever else; even hypothetically some apes, if you can believe that–individually and collectively.
More viscerally I'm for banishing inefficiency precarity exploitation and unjustifiable bullshit, making the world more fun/interesting, and finding opportunities to grow in those considered finished/complete or discarded by bourgeoise society. Also pretty opposed to pointless wasteful destruction of things that are unrecoverable or expensive to recover. I've got a lot of anger about delusional superstitions theological and otherwise that justify awful bullshit that prevents and destroys the good stuff.
This means in practical terms that I'm extremely hostile to police, means testing, borders, hierarchy, private property, money, laws in general, bureaucracy, and probably a lot of other stuff you think is necessary or elemental to the way the world works. I will not be saying what I'm in favor of in the day-to-day here–too unusual.
This sounds pretty uncompromising because it is. I haven't had much connection to established society and ideas in my adult life except by conflict, and was explicitly excluded as a child. I have gained nothing from it except by force or deception, and so had no positive social/material bonds with it to guide my intellectual/emotional growth or relationships that would be stressed by radical ideas. Nobody has compromised with me, so I have compromised on nothing, which is unfortunate–i quite enjoy co-creation if the built world and perceptions thereof. Of all the people to seek common ground with; I am not the ideal. There are others you could ask.
I appreciate your genuine response, thank you for taking your time to reply to me.
Right on, I agree with you that it would be worth promoting those potentials for intelligence like you said. I could even see an argument where we share the genes of understanding complex language that we have, although I feel we should try to slow aging more/eliminate more diseases/cancers before doing that much.
To me, it sounds like you want things to be better than they are, because you know they can be. I feel the same way about wanting things to be better, to experience the fun and to find joy in the unexpected/unknown.
Am I right in hearing that you want to pursue your passions, but that economically we don’t reward those routes? If that is the case, I think it’s a modern tragedy that society is not rewarding those with heart and passion to pursue the path they want to walk.
I feel the same way as you about wasteful destruction of things that that are damaged or hard to recover. Just because it’s not perfect, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t have history or meaning behind it.
I think that’s a fair take, the paradox of tolerance certainly applies to what you’re talking about with many beliefs out there.
I think many of the things you listed make sense to have gripes with in one way or another, especially in this day and age.
For instance, the means test you mentioned. Why is there a threshold for help? Why is it that once you go slightly past the threshold that you lose all of those safety nets from the benefit programs?
I mean, why do we have these arbitrary borders? We’re all human after all. Can’t we just come together and have a unified global society already? At the least you would think traveling wouldn’t be such a big deal, yet alone immigrating to another country just to live.
I don’t think most things should necessarily need hierarchies. I do like that some co-op businesses are out there for that reason, although not as many as there could/should be.
Personally, I’m fine with some forms of private property, but I do think there should be way more public property than there is. For instance, I feel that most if not all private apartments should be public apartments. I would personally like a house someday to have the space to raise a family. Technically, I have no issue with the state itself owning the house property if it was easier for future generations to have access to houses as well.
I don’t think money itself is bad, but how we allocate it is just bonkers. I mean, the fact that there are billionaires when people go hungry and don’t have a roof over their heads is an absurdity. If we taxed the billionaires and big corporations so that everyone had access to something like a Universal Basic Income and other progressive programs/housing, that would go a long ways towards making the world a better place.
That’s okay, it’s better to not mention it if it’s too unique to you.
I’m sorry that you’ve been fighting alone for so long and in such an uncaring environment at that. We’re not built to walk a lonely path -one without warmth, kindness, and consideration shown to us. I feel like you’re being a bit hard on yourself here, no one’s perfect after all. It sounds to me like you do care about helping others, it’s difficult when your voice is not being heard though.
I don’t need to prove you wrong, I just need to sit back and watch your every effort come to nothing. Proceed!
I can't tell if this is a bit.