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European Council of Foreign Relations openly talks about vassalisation of Europe by the US (ecfr.eu)

submitted 1 year ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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The report is absolutely scathing. Some choice quotes:

But when the next crisis came, both the US and the governments of Europe fell back on old models of alliance leadership. Europe, as EU high representative for foreign affairs Josep Borrell loudly lamented prior to Russia’s invasion, is not really at the table when it comes to dealing with the Russia-Ukraine crisis. It has instead embarked on a process of vassalisation.

But “alone” had a very specific meaning for Scholz. He was unwilling to send Leopard 2 tanks to Ukraine unless the US also sent its own main battle tank, the M1 Abrams. It was not enough that other partners would send tanks or that the US might send other weapons. Like a scared child in a room full of strangers, Germany felt alone if Uncle Sam was not holding its hand.

Europeans’ lack of agency in the Russia-Ukraine crisis stems from this growing power imbalance in the Western alliance. Under the Biden administration, the US has become ever more willing to exercise this growing influence.

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[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Ah yes, providing an alternative to US exploitation of the world is AuThoRitaRiaN! 🤡

[-] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

I'd rather have no exploitation. Alternative exploitation isn't really better.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Except it's not actually alternative exploitation. I can see why westerners can't imagine relations between countries that aren't exploitative given the history of the west though.

[-] FluffyPotato@lemm.ee 0 points 1 year ago

China is absolutely exploiting quite a few African nations and it's neighbors in the south China Sea. Also I'm not sure what the west is but I'm pretty sure my country doesn't qualify.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Weird, the actual data doesn't support your assertions. Chinese Investment In Africa Has Had ‘Significant And Persistently Positive’ Long-Term Effects Despite Controversy.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

Are you saying the Chinese government is not authoritarian?

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Literally, every government is fundamentally authoritarian because it holds the monopoly on violence by virtue of controlling the police and military forces of the country. It's a nonsensical terms that illiterate people use because they think it sounds scary.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

No, that's political power, and they are voted into power and out again

Authoritarianism comes in three flavours:

bossism (autocratic party dictatorships); i.e. China

juntas (oligarchic military dictatorships); i.e. Sudan

and. strongman (autocratic military dictatorships) i.e. Russia

None of these examples use democracy...

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

No, that’s political power, and they are voted into power and out again

The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them. The power stays with the class that's actually in charge which is the capital owning class. And there are numerous studies showing this to be the case. Here's what one long term study of US politics has to say:

What do our findings say about democracy in America? They certainly constitute troubling news for advocates of “populistic” democracy, who want governments to respond primarily or exclusively to the policy preferences of their citizens. In the United States, our findings indicate, the majority does not rule—at least not in the causal sense of actually determining policy outcomes. When a majority of citizens disagrees with economic elites or with organized interests, they generally lose. Moreover, because of the strong status quo bias built into the U.S. political system, even when fairly large majorities of Americans favor policy change, they generally do not get it.

Meanwhile, the fact that you keep claiming that China is a dictatorship just further exposes your ignorance on the subject you're attempting to debate. This is wilful ignorance because you have been provided with numerous western sources demonstrating that this claim is false. Yet, you continue to repeat it.

And of course, the system that Russia resembles the most is the US. Don't take my word for it though, it's what your own state media says:

"American democracy is a sham, no matter how much it's pumped by the oligarchs who run the country (and who control the nation's "news" media)," he writes. "The US, in other words, is basically similar to Russia or most other dubious 'electoral' 'democratic' countries. We weren't formerly, but we clearly are now."

You are shamefully ignorant of the subject you're attempting to debate. Spend some time educating yourself instead of trolling here.

[-] smartwater0897@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

A lot of western people still believe that they are free, because they dont recognize their prison from history books.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

I didn't claim China was a dictatorship, it's a market autocracy. Do keep up.

And I'm not American so not sure why you keep quoting random text from who knows where about them

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

It's not an autocracy, it's a democracy as anybody who actually knows the first thing about China understands. It's also demonstrably the fact because the government of China consistently works in the interest of the people of China. This is reflected by things such as massive poverty alleviation, infrastructure building, and so on. This is why the government of China has far higher approval than any western country. However, it's not a western style parliamentary democracy. It's a common mistake that uneducated westerners make to equate democracy with their own failed implementation of the concept.

And I’m not American so not sure why you keep quoting random text from who knows where about them

Well then answer, do you think that America is a and. strongman (autocratic military dictatorships)?

Also, is your own country a strongman autocratic dictatorship given that it has made protesting illegal, and it's torturing journalists?

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

China is not a liberal democracy. The Chinese government and the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) state that China is democratic nonetheless. Many foreign and some domestic observers categorize China as an authoritarian one-party state, with some saying it adheres to neoauthoritarianism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_China

The government can pass laws in the UK, unpopular ones mean they get voted out

What's the process for the Chinese people?

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

The government can pass laws in the UK, unpopular ones mean they get voted out

You once again show a simplistic understanding of how your own political system works. The two parties you have that have a chance of wining are Conservatives and Labour. Both parties consistently pass policy that's hostile towards the working majority and benefits the oligarchs, yet it's pretty much impossible for an alternative party to get into power. The fact that you get to choose between two turds doesn't make your system democratic. It's an illusion of choice and it's clearly enough to convince a lot of you that you have some sort of power.

The way people get elected into your government is by having election campaigns, and these need a lot of funding. So the people the government actually answers to are the ones who pay for these campaign. That's who gets represented in practice, and that's why there is a continuous wealth transfer to the top that's happening.

What’s the process for the Chinese people?

Voting, when a candidate doesn't do what they got voted in to do then they get voted out. Having a single party or multiple parties is completely tangential to that. However, since Chinese system isn't based around having huge campaign funds, it makes it possible for regular working class people to actually participate in politics.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 year ago

Elections in the People's Republic of China occur under a one-party authoritarian political system controlled by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP).[1][2] Direct elections, except in the special administrative regions of Hong Kong and Macau, occur only at the local level people's congresses and village committees, with all candidate nominations preapproved by the CCP

Doesn't sound very democratic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_China

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

The results are clearly far more democratic than what we see in the west as I've already explained above. By any measure you choose, Chinese government does a far better job representing the interests of the working majority than any western government. But you keep on thinking that your system is superior.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

Sure, that's why the CCP have been opening secret police stations across the world, because they're so democratic. Got it

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/4/25/dissidents-urge-western-action-as-china-targets-critics-overseas

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

I love how you rely on debunked conspiracy theories as a form of argument https://www.mintpressnews.com/false-witnesses-sinister-plots-exposing-cia-connection-chinese-police-station-narrative/285021/

By the way how's torturing Assange going mr. democracy?

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

Debunked?

Doubt

Operation Fox Hunt (Chinese: 猎狐专项行动; pinyin: Liè hú zhuānxiàng xíngdòng) is a Chinese covert global operation whose purported aim is anti-corruption under Chinese Communist Party general secretary Xi Jinping's administration. As of 2017, it has led to the arrest of over 40 of its 100 most wanted globally.[1][2][3] The program has been accused of targeting Chinese dissidents living abroad to stop their activism under the guise of returning corrupt Chinese nationals to China to face criminal charges.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fox_Hunt

And how is Assange being tortured? He's being detained pending extradition and having his day in court. Unlike those under authoritarian regimes....you don't get irony do you?

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/09/uk/julian-assange-extradition-appeal-intl-gbr/index.html

[-] smartwater0897@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

You don't think Assange is being tortured? What would you call it then? :)

[-] sin_free_for_00_days@lemmy.one 0 points 1 year ago

How the hell is that torture? Fighting extradition to answer for crimes is now...torture? You set the bar so freaking low it's weird.

[-] smartwater0897@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

Only in a sick society it's a crime to show the world war crimes.

[-] sin_free_for_00_days@lemmy.one 0 points 1 year ago

Only in a sick society do apparently rational people worship criminals.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Equating legality with morality is a logical fallacy. When slavery was legal, people who freed slaves were criminals. Using your logic we should've been siding with the slavers. You sound like a very rational and intelligent person.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

In prison. What did he expect?

Edit. He knew what he was doing, why else would he try and warn the Whitehouse ?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-assange-idUSKBN20J1W9

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Doubt

So, China prosecuting criminals abroad, as all countries do, so proof of what again?

And how is Assange being tortured?

Prolonged solitary confinement is a form of torture https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2020/02/united-states-prolonged-solitary-confinement-amounts-psychological-torture

So, I'll ask again, how's torturing Assange going mr. democracy?

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

Because China imprisons political opponents, are you really this dense?

And Assange hasn't been in solitary for 3 years. His own representative said his health is improving

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-assange-idUSKBN20C19Q

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

Ah yes, imprisons political opponents the way the west does with Assange, Manning, and others. Also love how your argument is that you just haven't tortured him enough akChuAlly.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

The espionage laws are quite clear, unlike your muddled thinking

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

The crime your government is torturing Assange for is reporting on US army massacring unarmed civilians from a helicopter gunship. The fact that you're chill with that clearly shows that you don't actually care about human rights or democracy in the slightest. The only thing you care about is your own privileges that you get by virtue of winning the birth lottery in your shithole country.

[-] bernieecclestoned@sh.itjust.works -1 points 1 year ago

People who've broken laws and still travel to a country with a known extradition treaty?

Bit silly

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -2 points 1 year ago

It's good to know you're on record supporting torture of journalists. I really don't have to say anything else to discredit whatever bleatings come out of you regarding human rights going forward.