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this post was submitted on 02 Oct 2023
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If you have to use Tor you shouldn't be using Windows.
This is a bad response to this news. There are many reasons why you might want to run tor on Windows and gatekeeping people out of tor because they are not on a chosen OS is a terribly way to get more people into thinking about privacy and security practices. Yes if you have the highest threat model you might want to avoid Windows as well, but not everyone needs absolute privacy/security for what they do. But why should you not have access to a tool that can help improve things even if you are not able to switch everything to a more private/secure alternative?
Really you should want everyone and anyone to run on tor, even if they don't need it, even if they are on windows. The more people using it the more secure it is for those that do require it.
Yeah I agree. To be clear, if you take the reverse of my statement, i.e. if you're on Windows, you shouldn't use Tor, then I would be gatekeeping.
But I'm not implying that, but rather the reverse. I'm saying if you have use Tor for whatever reasons to bypass censorship, do illegal stuff and avoid being tracked, you should at least be aware that at the kernel level, how you're accessing the internet has already been compromised by Microsoft, and consider alternatives OSes
Of course I'd still want people running Windows to be able to use Tor, and also I'd say leaving Windows isn't something you would only do at the "highest threat model".
Privacy will almost always be a trade-off with convenience, I'm pushing the awareness to get people to act, should they choose to. That's all.
You might not have intended to imply that, but your original words can be taken in many different ways. Such as a dismissive well this news does not matter because you should not be using TOR if you are on windows. You did not say that exactly, but either interpenetration needs some reading between the lines as you did not really say all that much. So it could be taken that way just as much as the way you actually intended. And on the internet if things can be interpreted multiple ways they will be.
Taking “If P then not Q” as equivalent to “If not Q then not P” is just straight up broken thinking. We shouldn’t have to preface each comment with a primer on the basics of how to think.
I know you meant well, but I don't think their interpretation implied any logical fallacy. I used a conditional statement but my statement was prescriptive, not descriptive.
The difference between "I should" and "I have to/must" is a modal one. I implied "if I have to X then I shouldn't Y". They swapped X and Y around to get "If I have to Y then I shouldn't X", which is just a plain misinterpretation. The use of what is and what ought implies a recommendation or opinion, not mutual exclusivity. For that, I would have to use the same modality "If I have to X then I must not do Y".
It's like mixing up "If I have an infectious disease, I shouldn't go outside" vs. "If I have to go outside, I shouldn't have an infectious disease". To me, they have a subtle difference. There is compromise and decision-making involved.
I'll spell it out anyway because why not. I can't be bothered to edit my original comment. While it's sensational-sounding, anyone who take issue with what I said don't take surveillance properly so I can't help them, while those that misinterpreted me like nous did can find out for themselves here.
spoiler
If I have to use Windows, then I can still use Tor understanding and accepting that the OS at the kernel level is a black box that logs and tracks whatever it wants. I can compromise because I might just want to read a blocked news site or Wikipedia. Likewise, if I'm stuck somewhere and I have to use Windows to use Tor then it is a compromise. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't use Tor. I'm responsible for my bad opsec should anything bad come my way.versus
If I have to use Tor, then something is wrong with the way I'm able to access and/or spread information (I handle sensitive or illegal topics, that can harm me or others if found out), and I can't do it privately because there is surveillance involved. At the kernel level windows is a blackbox that mishandle my data and has the ability to observe everything I do. Therefore I ought to not use Windows.
I'm not saying you're wrong (frankly, I'm on your side), but the majority of the general population, i.e. windows users, would take it as such. This is more to do with the failure of the various education systems more so than anything else.
If you have to bust out explanations from IQ test questions to explain yourself, then you've failed to communicate with 98% of whoever reads your comment. You can't expect people to put in more than a modicum of effort to understand your message.
Most people understand how to think without needing to know how to formalize the process.
I think this is a very lofty idealism.
Sometimes people use Tor just to get around 'This site is blocked in your country'
But hey, I hear ya! I've been running Linux as my daily driver since 2015, and the more they enshittify Windows, the more I recommend others make the switch.
Agreed. I thought of ISP restrictions too, but I would say if where you live places a level of censorship due to political reasons or otherwise and you need to access it for whatever reasons so you need Tor then by all means Microsoft is not your friend since they're a privacy nightmare.
There are also VPNs for banned media, I typically wouldn't want to use Tor for anything more than textual content as it puts too much load on the Tor network.
While I agree that the Tor network is slow, it also depends on excess traffic to “bury” the more sensitive stuff. Part of why Tor works is because the actual sensitive stuff gets buried under all of the noise of regular users. Without all of that excess traffic, it’d be much easier to track what is happening.
As an extreme example, imagine how insecure the Tor network would be if there were only two users. It’d be blatantly obvious that those two users are communicating. By adding more users and more traffic, those two users can more easily hide in the sea of traffic. In short, more use does slow things down, but it’s also better for privacy overall.
Now that POW DDOS protection has started to roll i am actually finding tor to not be much worse than regular browsing. The markets are quick, dread is quick, tor times is quick, and pitch is quick. Where i find it slow is going back to the clearnet. If it ends with .onion though it loads pretty damn quick
Me too. I noped out of Win10 after fighting with Win7 too much. Most people tell me I'm just unusual however I think more people than will admit just browse the web and can't handle Win95 levels of customization and lack of making decisions for you. People are generally overwhelmed with the mere idea that they could customize their computer to work in different ways... Heck, on Windows it's varied if you can even reasonably change to a different default browser without being "techie" (stupid low bar considered techie by many)...
Yeah, but linux breaks heavily modded Skyrim. Something about ubuntu or something breaks skse, and honestly I don't care enough.
The true reason for Microsoft’s continued monopoly, and the reason behind its strategic acquisition of Starfield
I have to say, my computing life changed A LOT for the better when I stopped playing games on the PC back when the PS3 was out. I got so tired of Windows getting screwed up by various games and their anti-cheat crap. I think in 2023, it might make sense to separate out functions a little - used computers run Linux just fine and are cheeeap. So if you want a yar har, web browsing, e-mail processing, programming etc computer, do that on the more private / (to be better) OS and then have your game only computer for gaming.
Arch users are never shaking those allegations. Are are aware that people use Tor for other things, right?