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Palestine-Israel Crisis Megathread
(lemmy.ml)
Due to the severity of the situation and the fast flowing news cycle, we have decided to create a general megathread for discussion regarding the conflict.
Informal/Satirical news sources are not allowed on the main feed of the community but you are free to post them in this thread.
Please remember that all community and instance rules apply to this thread hence keep is civil.
Hmm, why would Palestinians hate European settlers that stole their land via the imperial edict of Britain? 🙄
Damn what’s with this fierce binary tribalism? Can we acknowledge that it’s one of the most complicated geopolitical circumstances in the history of the world?
Or is it just “my team is the good guys and the other team is evil”?
No, we can't... because it's not. It's only "complicated" due to pro-Israeli propaganda and nothing else - it's no more "complicated" than Apartheid South Africa was.
There's only two teams. The imaginary side you made up in your head doesn't exist.
It's Hamas or Israel. Pick one.
By not picking a side you become invisible and irrelevant. If you don't want to pick a side, just tune out and go play video games or something because it's basically the same thing.
When Palestinians held peaceful marches for freedom, Israel blew their knees out. Pacifism doesn't work when one side thinks you're animals.
Also, by choosing to not pick a side, you're just tacitly siding with the winning side. Which side do your tax dollars go to?
No shit that I am irrelevant to the war in Gaza. I live on the other side of the world and dont have any political power. The most I could do is try to send some money to aid the Palestinian refugees, and I still would be invisible and irrelevant to it. Are you sending money, supplies, armaments, or fighting for Hamas? If not you are invisible and irrelevant to this conflict yourself. Just like 99.999% of the world's population.
Vocal support matters in democracies. If Western governments stopped supporting Israel this war would be very different.
By not even vocally supporting anything you have taken away your own voice. You've silenced yourself.
Almost a troll-like insistence on lack of nuance to an extremely complex situation
The invocation of nuance is a trick to get you to not take a stance that matters and to stay trapped in your own head cooking up imaginary solutions that can never and will never happen.
The actually nuanced position is to support Hamas despite its flaws, because they're the only material force that is fighting for Gaza.
Hamas is resisting Zionism, not Jews. They're pretty explicit about that.
So if you oppose race/religion-based tribalism you support Hamas, because they're the ones opposing it.
"European settlers" in the sense that they hadn't been in Israel since the Romans kicked them out in '65 for causing too much trouble with all their messiahs and religious zealotry.
2000 years!
They hadn't ever been in Israel, they were born and raised in Europe by parents that were born and raised in Europe by grandparents that were born and raise in Europe etc. etc. They were Europeans, complete with white skin and European culture and European language.
This wasn't refugees returning to their home. It was settlers invading nonwhite people's land and stealing it for themselves.
The only Israeli citizen I know was born in Scottsdale, Arizona.
Yeah, if we stretch this logic even further down, we all get to claim our ancestral land in Africa from 200 millennia ago.
The Netherlands had better watch out... my ancestors came from there about 300 years ago, and that automatically gives me the right to rape, torture and murder my way through Antwerp!
Every Russian in Lithuania better pack their bags. I'm tearing up my Pennsylvania birth certificate and returning home! I can't wait to open the first Primanti Bro's in Vilnius.
Anrwerp is Belgium, though ;)
Pshhh... there's a difference?
They speak more elegant... or French
Yes, all ancestral land claims are ultimately at least a little bit silly.
Yes, the vague equivalent would be for the Native Americans to reclaim the United States via superior force ~1800 years from now.
Not even Native Americans!
It would be the equivalent of people with extremely diluted ancestry and no connection to any tribe, white people who practice a Native religion and speak an extremely deformed English dialect of some Native language but are otherwise just US Americans.
A third of Israelis are (family of) refugees/emigrants from the middle-east or north Africa.
It's not a 'white european' country, which you'd know just looking at them.
Imposing simplistic American notions of race on a complicated conflict is stupid and embarrassing.
Yeah, now. That's because they imported Jews from everywhere they could to become Israeli. It started as a European settler project.
But if you look at the positions of power, the government and businesses and celebrities, you'll see mostly white faces. Israel definitely has a white supremacist bent to it - you don't think an Ethiopian Jew will ever be the prime minister do you?
America's white majority is going to disappear too, but you don't think that will actually end American white supremacy right?
Out of interest, would you describe Romani people (pejorative 'gypsy') as being white?
If they were given their own settler colony and started being treated as an equal by all the other white countries? Yes.
I wouldn't consider a European Jew before the formation of Israel to be white, but they're sure as fuck white now.
If someone of white European heritage burns down a synagogue frequented by what you consider people of white European heritage, would you still consider that racist given they're the same race? Or would you consider that less racist than someone burning down a church frequented by black people?
Individual people can be racist in all sorts of kooky ways, like there's certainty individuals racist against white Irish people and against white people from Mediterranean countries. So, yeah, it's possible for a kooky individual to be racist against Jewish white people.
But that's not reflective of society, of systems of social or political power, or of the current cultural epoch. That's just a freak.
It is almost like Jewish people have a conditional relationship with whiteness. The idf soldiers bombing children's hospitals certainly are capital W White.
It is always interesting seeing a person be so blatantly racist and not realize it.
Jews have had people there pretty much that entire time. Under the Roman empire, under the Byzantine, under Arabs, under the Ottoman empire, under the British empire.
You seem to know very little about the region. The way you speak of race is certainly American. Not sure how you think the Polish, much less Polish Jews, were treated in the past, but I can assure you it wasn't as a white person.
Further, the Sephardi chief rabbi is middle eastern by any definition (born in Israel, parents born in Iraq). The Ashkenazi chief rabbi is the son of a polish born Holocaust survivor.
There are at least 3.2 Mizrahi Jews in Israel although recent studies suggest around 44% of the population. That means Jews from Israel or the surround middle eastern areas. Are middle easterners white now?
Jews might be considered white in America (sometimes). But what is white in America does not apply to the rest of the world. Even Europe doesn't share the same attitude, I assure you.
It didn't start as a European settler project. Europe was in control of the region post WWI so Jews lobbied in Europe and in the US. Many of which were Mizrahi and/or already having lived in mandate Palestine.
I'm sure you don't even realize what you're saying is racist, but it is. If a person with black parent(s) can pass as white, are they also white? Is their a paper bag test for Jews too? What about one drop? Are all Africans black? Do you know what an average person from Yemen looks like? Egypt? Why didn't Polish and German Jews just be pretend not to be Jewish during the Holocaust since they are white?
Since the human population shares at least two common areas that all current humans came from, how many generations must a group of people exist in a place to say they are descendants of that place? If a person is a jew by birth through European heritage, but is blacker than Obama, and moves to Israel are they a white European Jew or a black minority? Is Bashar al-assad white? Viktor Orban? Gabriel Boric?
Please, can you answer those questions?
You still see white faces in high places. That's why Europe and America are Israel's greatest supporters - they want an ethnosate in the middle east.
That's why you aren't going to ever see an Ethiopian Prime Minister. Now you're right, race isn't exactly like it is in the US. It actually reminds me more of colorismo in Latin America, where racial prejudice is based more on how dark your skin is than being clear cut along racial lines. Light skinned Asians get to have this privilege in the racial majority.
But there is a racial component to Israel's apartheid regime and its unlimited support from Europe and America, and you have to acknowledge this.
HMM WHY DOES THAT SOUND FAMILIAR?!
History repeats, I guess.
Keep screeching for nuance while Israel bombs evacuation routes and refugee camps with the full throated support of Europe and America.
While I won't argue in support of the amount of force Israel is using, I am curious what you believe they should do. For this current situation and the whole situation at large.
Return the land they stole and reform the single Palestinian state so they can peacefully coexist within Palestine.
And who is responsible for that, eh? The same "western civilization" that is now using Israel as a kapo state to do it's dirty work in the middle-east, perhaps?
Its almost like you want to collapse all Jews and the settler colonial state of Israel into one group to fit a simpler narrative of what's happening.