605
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 22 Oct 2023
605 points (95.6% liked)
politics
19107 readers
2743 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Can't we just move on without them? They're bad for America anyways.
Unfortunately no, not until we vote enough democrats in
I always wondered, is it still a legitimate democracy of there are only two parties?
No. It's not even a legitimate democracy when there are any representatives. Just look at how often Congress goes against the will of the majority.
A legitimate democracy would be direct voting, but most people who support democracy don't support it.
Direct voting has some definite drawbacks mostly involved with the amount of time it takes to fully read and digest each instance of bill making. Everyone has an opinion but just check around here and you will see how often people will comment without doing so much as an easy google search to bring up the specifics about how programs work. I don't think that I would want that principle dictating my life. Legislation requires briefs and budgets to be read and attempted to be understood and that means time. If you didn't put a stipulation on everybody having to sit through the brief then basically you are voting continually on unnuanced, pop culture ideas of how something works. If you put the stipulations of having to participate in the brief then you have a system that favors people with free time... Time for that kind of pursuit favors people who don't need to spend every minute trying to work to make it to the next rent payment.
Like it or not the act of voting on legislative matters to make a body of government run should be a full time gig. I personally throw my lot in with the idea of Democratic lotteries where anyone can volunteer for a random chance at a seat for a term but winning requires that you accept all responsibility to do the job properly. If you slack off, try and break the rules or can't show up you lose the spot. I have more trust that the demi random sample of people in the system will more represent a reasonable approximation of the overall will of the people then the politicians that get elected usually because the can sort of perform like parrots saying the best catchphrases they think people want to hear to solicit votes.
Also since the system would have no campaigns it would partially eliminate the possibility of having politicians and outside business interests in bed together. It would mean you'd have to crack down on the possibility of winning candidates being bribed for kickbacks upon exit from political power... But our current elected system has this problem anyway.
You have a phone in your hand. Voting and tabulating is viable. Banks and the military use very secure methods.
Is so simple it's stupid. But no one has wanted to hear that for the decade I have been saying it. Democracy can change with the Internet.
As a web developer,
.
No software is perfect. The military can keep their systems secure by having strict standards for troops to adhere to. If you are a soldier and decide to livestream your troop movement on Tik Tok, there WILL be consequences. If you're lucky, you'll just get kicked out of the military.
As for banks, again, they can control most of their usage from bank to bank. When it comes to the user to the bank, they have procedures in place but it isn't 100% secure. Hackings can happen. One of the common hacks is to send users a notice of some banking problem and a link to "the bank's login page." The user types their information in, the hacker stores this, and the user is then sent to the bank without any clue that they've just been compromised. The hacker then logs in at their leisure and transfers money. Banks have systems to claw that money back, but it's not foolproof.
If we had voting for political offices online, you'd have systems hacked, showing that they were voting for A when the vote sent in was really for B. You'd have text messages sent to users telling them to check their voting status, those users' usernames and passwords would be harvested and used to cast votes regardless of what the person wanted. You could even break into servers and change vote tallies.
This is all difficult to impossible because the voting systems aren't online. You would need to go to each system to do this. It would take a long time and would result in you being spotted, stopped, and arrested. Put it all online and any hacker in any country could determine who our elected officials were.
There are plenty of ways to do zero trust voting without too many hoops. It's not like we need to completely eliminate other forms of voting either. But I'd argue that letting me sign an email with a PGP cert and publishing the email's hash for me to verify is more secure and more "secret" than mail in voting is now.
But can you do it in a way that an ordinary voter can understand? And well enough that scammers won't be able to take advantage of their confusion? Start saying "certs and hashes" to your average voter and their eyes will glaze over. Meanwhile, scammers will add "National Electronic Voting Committee Approved" stamps to their emails to fool people into thinking that this means it can't possibly be a scam.
The primary rationale behind representative democracy is that it fosters a certain level of technocracy by default. To the extent that our collective "goal" is to collectively implement evidence based policy, then there needs to be a mechanism for expertise in that framework. Representative democracy accomplishes this in two ways - by allowing the direct election and appointment of subject matter experts to policy making positions, and via fair and transparent expert advisory pipelines to elected officials.
Regardless of whether you believe that humans are good or bad or dumb or smart or free, the individual human focus simply does not have the capacity to delve deeply into every possibly complexity of every possible policy. So either we restrict society to a much simpler form, or we require representative democracy.
So? People can vote for the bills they want, and ignore the ones they don't. They'll still have more power than they do now.
Funny. You use "allowing other people to make decisions for you" as though it's a drawback to direct voting when that's all a representative democracy is.
The problem isn't "other people make decisions", it's "not everyone has the time or energy to make good decisions".
Take Brexit. That was as direct a decision as I can think of, yet no one knew what it really meant, and many were intentionally mislead. I'd love to live in a country were everyone has the time and will to research and verify all the facts, but that's a losing proposition when people are working multiple jobs and still going hungry. Buying people's votes could be even easier, especially for those who don't care.
That's what I pointed out when I said people can only vote for the bills they care about and ignore the ones they don't.
Brexit is an example of the will of the people going against their own interests, but what about when Congress goes against the will of the people with a detrimental effect?
Is direct voting perfect? No. You will always be able to find issues with anything suggested. Is it better than a representative democracy? Probably, but not enough nations have implemented it so we don't have much data to go on.
This is when you start going into fantasy world territory. There's no way in hell it's cheaper or easier to buy individual votes than lobbying and campaign contributions. First of all, it's illegal. How would you set something like that up so it's easy for people who 'don't care' while keeping it away from law enforcement? You can't. All that may happen is small-scale vote buying, which already can occur.
Anyways. Thanks for being a fine example for why we don't make progress. Better the devil we know, right?
Advertising is how you biy the votes of people who don't really care. If they wont read up on it, then you tell them such-snd-such bill is bad for them, just like attack ads about candidates today.
I'm not saying direct democracy is intrinsically bad, I'd love to use it more. A few yes/no questions alongside a normal vote could be useful. I'm saying direct democracy isn't a drop-in replacement for representative democracy, especially a 100% direct version.
Direct and representative have shared weakpoints, and their own weakpoints, and we need to use each to cover eachother. Perhaps using a direct veto over representitive decisions, or direct decisions over representitive oprions.
With full direct democracy, laws won't mean anything anymore, and it's just mob rule. Controversies will get people executed, bad studies will get people killed, entire peoples and regions will be exiled, if not lynched. If you can whip enough people into a froth, you can control the whole country. Lots of people will listen to orhers for guidance anyway, basically recreating representitives but this time with no risk of responsibility on them; they can't lose their job for giving bad advice, as long as their following likes them.
And that's the problem I have with large amounts of direct democracy. We need more responsibility and accountability now, but removing representatives will give us less. If we can use direct democracy to hold representatives accountable, then sure, but who takes accountability for the majority when everybody pays?
Ultimately, I think a certain amount of funds should be set aside for social science experiments, where whole towns get their laws changed in radical ways for a decade, to see if something works without risking an entire nation. I've always be frustrated by how laws are rarely tested before applying to millions of people.
I would rather the people making choices on my behalf be held to some basic level of account then basically leaving it to a series of Facebook polls. In a democracy at some level someone else is always determining the rules that bind the individual. You as an individual are beholden to whatever principle fuels the majority of vote casters. I actually have no issue with allowing people to make the vast plethora of nessisary mundane decisions for me in a government setting but I would like those decisions to be backed up by accountability and be presented so that all side of the issue can be weighed appropriately and care be taken to make sure binding law is made carefully.
Direct voting takes a very simplistic stance regarding law. It imagines that by chipping in for the things you personally care about things will get done... But behind every law there is a web of things that require careful consideration as to things like exact wording, how it dovetails into previously existing law structure, giving chance for expert opinion to be consulted and to present their case in regards to predicted outcome, reasonable debate towards reaching concensus... For everything. A staggering amount of minutiae designed to keep the process stable and fair.
That's the thing. They're not making choices on your behalf.
Hence the "see how often Congress ignores the will of the people."
Ah. I am Canadian. We have a parliment. The American system's imploding nature due to partisan politics utilizing it's own neurotic infrastructure to essentially cheat is something that negatively effects my daily life but I do not get to vote on that.
People will actively lower their standards so they're not disappointed when they don't get what they want.
Both parties have separate voting bases and funding bases, which have some overlap but ultimately different priorities.
This is just factually incorrect. Even assuming you have no awareness of the history of direct democracy in action or what that history implies about its feasibility, there is still no mainstream political science framework in which pure direct democracy fully defines the word "democracy."
Yes? What kinda question is that?
There are no stupid questions, just stupid people.