264
Iceland’s first full-day women’s strike in 48 years aims to close pay gap
(www.theguardian.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2023
264 points (94.0% liked)
Europe
8324 readers
1 users here now
News/Interesting Stories/Beautiful Pictures from Europe 🇪🇺
(Current banner: Thunder mountain, Germany, 🇩🇪 ) Feel free to post submissions for banner pictures
Rules
(This list is obviously incomplete, but it will get expanded when necessary)
- Be nice to each other (e.g. No direct insults against each other);
- No racism, antisemitism, dehumanisation of minorities or glorification of National Socialism allowed;
- No posts linking to mis-information funded by foreign states or billionaires.
Also check out !yurop@lemm.ee
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
Asking from third world countries, there is a gap between genders?
Studies say there are none.
Where are these studies?
Are those studies with us in the room right now?
Some of them, but there actually is a gender pay in sharp contrast to what @Miclux and others say.
Here is the 2023 Gender Pay Gap Report for the U.S., for example. I posted other sources in this thread as you noted.
There's just more nuance to it than the way you and others on both sides in these comments are presenting it. There is an 16% gender pay gap, true, but it's actually a complex issue and just presenting that one fact in isolation leads others to believe "... and it is fully attributable to discrimination", which isn't the case.
Some of that is explained by "job choice" and choice of university degree, meaning women are self-selecting into certain lower paying jobs and fields of study. Like how women are underrepresented in STEM. This isn't to say women are bad at STEM. There are just societal barriers that prevent them from pursuing those career choices. Everything from the pervasive notion that women "don't like math" to harassment in male-dominated fields to our society enforcing the idea that women's role in society is to care for others - and the "caring professions" are not high-paying.
The gap is not wholly explained by these factors, and we should try to mitigate them while continuing to decrease gender discrimination. But don't pretend like these factors aren't also at issue. Meanwhile, the gap is closing due to women becoming more represented both in universities (outnumbering men in the US), various old-fashioned notions going away, etc.
There are plenty of studies that support this, I saw several both from Harvard (some of which I was familiar with) and many more from other reputable universities and institutions. Also some from irreputable, conservative think tanks - it's easy to see how this issue can be weaponized by them, but ignoring that job choice and other factors play a role is not helpful to closing the gender pay gap. This is from a US perspective, I can't guarantee it holds true in all "Western" countries - but I know it's the case in US and Canada
It is objectively true that women are overrepresented in lower paying jobs. This is due to a variety of reasons, including societal and social factors thay discourage women from going into higher paying, traditionally male fields. The gap is narrowing especially now that, at least in the US, there are more women attending university than men and we have robust laws to prevent/punish discrimination based on sex.
Here's a good summary/explanation by Pew Research Center in a writeup of a survey of theirs on the Gender Pay Gap:
They go on to say that a gap still exists, even accounting for these factors, but it's smaller than the commonly cited 84% figure (though 84% is correct if you don'taccount for other factors).
https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/03/01/gender-pay-gap-facts/
The US government has found that "Specifically, differences in the industries and occupations where men and women work explain 42.0% of their variance in earnings. ": https://www.dol.gov/sites/dolgov/files/WB/equalpay/WB_issuebrief-undstg-wage-gap-v1.pdf (source on the chart in page 2 of the writeup, comes from 2020 study by the US Census Bureau)
Here's a brief writeup of a Harvard study that talks about how women self-select into lower-paying jobs: https://gap.hks.harvard.edu/effect-task-choice-and-task-assignment-gender-wage-gap-experimental-study
Basically, there is a pay gap, some of it is explained by factors other than gender, but we should work to try to eliminate those factors by removing barriers for women to enter certain fields as well as gender discrimination.
No, wilfully ignorant misogynists do
That’s a way to read that. Another is that the effect largely vanishes (but not completely) when you correct for the factors that cause the gender gap.
This means that we understand HOW women are paid less, but not necessarily WHY.
In large parts it's because of the choice of employment and losing out on work experience when staying home.
It should be socially accepted to work what the hell you want. But I don't see any way to codify a fair gender ratio into law. So this is a really tough nut to crack, because it requires a mind change by all of society.
Arguing for equal compensation regardless of experience makes no sense. Unfortunately only one parent is equipped with the hardware to make and raise kids. So we need a way to enable more equal distribution of work. But if women are just naturally more inclined to care for kids (which would make a lot of sense from an evolutionary perspective), then this gap will persist unless we force people by law to work or take care of kids more.
That’s a good overview of the first order effects, but there is some nasty stuff at the edges.
For example, trans men report being able to negotiate higher salaries after transition. For example, jobs that transition from traditionally male to traditionally female dominated see a depression in salaries.
I’m not sure how to fix it, but there are serious reasons to believe we are far from “equal pay for equal work”.
Yes that is also one aspect.
I didn't mention it, because I have no idea how that could even be solved on a large scale. This is a problem that arises from the individual's ability to negotiate. Unless you work in a unionized job, where salaries are more often clearly defined in a table and negotiated for everyone at once
Studies that "correct" for the effects themselves say there are none.
@Tvkan
Which studies?