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Kick tankies out of 196
(lemmy.blahaj.zone)
Remember kids, Tankies wants to undermine democracy - same as facists.
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this post was submitted on 23 Oct 2023
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What's your issue with Yitzhak Rabin? With the Israeli Labour party in general? I mean short of any issues you might have with socdems in theory or practice.
And Herzl advocated for which of those?
Rabin was a Labour Zionist killed by a Religious Zionist. It's not a left-right thing. In fact it would hardly be accurate to call the right's conception of Zionism proper Zionism as a Jewish state in perpetual conflict with its neigbours is not feasible in the long term. Right wing and self-sabotage, name a more iconic duo.
If you use a word in a wrong way then you shouldn't be surprised if people call you out on it.
And, no, I won't excuse Israel here there's fucking Kahanites in the current government, Rabin's killer is a Kahanite, they're not a single bit less fascist than Hamas or Nazis, just the coat of paint differs.
...and maybe, just maybe, if you're out here on the internet with the explicit mission of doing activism you should have an understanding about the broader political context of things, the alternative is to be an instrument for whoever gets to you first. This is basic shit. In a sense Zionism dates back to about 500BC when Persians conquered the area from the Babylonians which had conquered the Jewish kingdoms and ethnically cleansed them.
The return to Israel was back then tied up with a prophecy of world peace (see swords to ploughs), but the diaspora continued to exist and there's in fact anti-Zionist Jews who think that the whole project is heresy as it's trying to force a prophecy. Zionists of course disagree (or simply don't see it in religious terms), but long story short yes there's plenty of people who want a Jewish state, with full rights for all non-Jews living there, democratic, liberal, peaceful, lefty, all the things. Rabin was one of them. Herzl wasn't that much different. You should be supporting those people, try to convince Israelis to give that approach another chance, not lump them up with genocidal maniacs. Same of course goes for the Palestinian side (in case you plan on defending Hamas).
tl;dr: Fascism bad.
Anytime you say "palestinians are dying" there's always a well-trodden wag going "ARE YOU SAYING ISRAEL SHOULDN'T EXIST11???///!!"
You have to learn to just ignore it and hope the world will come to some sense at some point soon
To quickly get the IDF to stop bombing getting rid of the current government seems to be a decent approach, don't you think? To that end, I'll quote myself:
Cool stuff dude. Down with Israel! Thanks for your support.
you reek of antisemitism tbh
I have no prpblems with jews who are not committing genocide.
It is antisemitic to equate valid criticism of the apartheid state of Israel with antisemitism.
"Down with Israel" != valid criticism :)
It is, you can hate the shit the government of Israel does without hating Jewish people, they're not the same thing.
Yeah, what is next, "down with south Africa!" during apartheid?
Conflating Judaism with the state of Israel is antisemitic. Cut that shit out.
Wanting to destroy Israel, which is currently the home of nearly half the world's Jews, is antisemitic 🤷♀️
If there's a competitive party in the Knesset that is actively against bombing Gaza, sure.
But literally the leader of the opposition in the Knesset is *fully in support* of the IDF's actions so far.
https://www.france24.com/en/tv-shows/tête-à-tête/20231010-israeli-opposition-leader-yair-lapid-the-endgame-is-there-will-be-no-hamas-in-gaza
As it stands, Likud has had a strong grip on the Knesset for a long time, despite not really having a mandate of popular support.
Even when opposition parties have won a plurality, war hawks like Netanyahu and Sharon have still been able to build Likud-run coalitions.
So genuine question, why is Netanyahu continually able to keep forming governments if he and his party are as unpopular as I understand they are? Is it just because the opposition parties aren't able to work out a deal to form a coalition, despite them having a plurality?
After Rabin's death, the second Intifada etc. the Israeli electorate became disillusioned with the peace process and pretty much swallowed the right-wing idea of how to provide security wholesale, which is pretty much "checkpoints and harassment until they give up", depending on just how right-wing a particular politician is that's more or less of a euphemism.
The kicker is though that this was only about security, in other areas (like pudding) the electorate stayed as overall centre-left as it's always been. Now the right has demonstrated that their approach doesn't work, if anything it made things worse, and this very much already has entered public conversation though people are still rattled and busy otherwise. The usual suspects like the Haaretz of course are pushing that line -- gently, in the sense of attaching it to their "Netanyahu has to fucking go" line which they held pretty much since forever, not in the "we all fucked up and ourselves fell for fascism" way. That's a bitter pill to swallow for a civil society composed to a large part of survivors of fascism and descendants thereof.
The task the government gave the IDF, btw, that is, eradicate Hamas, as in get to every single member and imprison or kill them, is pretty much impossible without ending up killing 90% of Gazans. I guesstimate that's why the ground offensive hasn't started yet: While there's certainly people within Netanyahu's government who salivate at the opportunity of glassing Gaza not all of them are completely devoid of moral fibre, also side note the US sent people over to explain to them, in detail, how much of a military shitshow and political mistake Fallujah was.
OTOH, rolling back all that war rhetoric is also an impossibility for the government. As such getting disposed of by the electorate would kind of be an act of mercy. Not for Netanyahu though he's going to prison for corruption.
Kinda OT side-note: From a German POV it always struck me as nuts that Israel freed over a thousand Palestinians, largely Hamas fighters, in exchange for a single IDF soldier. The German answer to such a thing would have been a simple "We don't negotiate with terrorists". Because if you start doing that all you're saying is "please capture our people we'll cave in again". That is, for all their hard-nosed rhetoric and bombing campaigns the government (Netanyahu, again) has been awfully sentimental and non-strategic about it.
Why do we keep getting shit presidents in America?
Mostly, political connections.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_camp
Some of those partners have other reasons for aligning with Netanyahu besides his hardline stance on Palestine.
Meanwhile, public polling in Israel shows strong support for diplomatic solutions -- with a plurality in favor of the two-state solution -- rather than military solutions.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-polls-regarding-peace-with-the-palestinians
Zionism in general needs to die, you're just repeating the same shit over and over
Social democrats are still imperialist.