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Biden administration thinks Netanyahu may not last politically
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this post was submitted on 01 Nov 2023
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I really am tired of throwing an important term like genocide around. When you say "Stop Palestinian Genocide" ask why the Palestinian population in Gaza increased by 100% in 20 years (The pop birth must decline for genocide). Why is there no prerequisite systemic mass murder of EVERY ONE OF THE 2.1 MILLION GAZANS? ... like Rwanda, Bosnia, Cambodia, or what HAMAS tried on 10-7. Try some facts before you throw around terms you obviously don't understand.
This Israeli historian and Holocaust scholar disagrees with you.
https://www.newsweek.com/holocaust-historian-israel-committing-genocide-raz-segal-1835346
Just bc it's your OPINION it isn't a legal basis of fact. Has Israel's policy skirted it in aspects? Clearly, but War against terrorists is not genocide by definition even with civilian casualties.
Here is the original article, it's more detailed. What are your specific disagreements with it? I find the Professor's arguments persuasive.
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
Genocide requires an intent to destroy an ethnic group. The article does not make a good case for this, eg citing comments by Biden and von der Leyen that were clearly directed at Hamas, not Palestinians in general.
That's not to say that Israel is doing the right thing. I don't they are. We are certainly seeing the horror of a botched war. I'm not so certain we are seeing genocide.
FTA:
"It’s not only Israel’s leaders who are using such language. An interviewee on the pro-Netanyahu Channel 14 called for Israel to “turn Gaza to Dresden.” Channel 12, Israel’s most-watched news station, published a report about left-leaning Israelis calling to “dance on what used to be Gaza.” Meanwhile, genocidal verbs—calls to “erase” and “flatten” Gaza—have become omnipresent on Israeli social media. In Tel Aviv, a banner reading “Zero Gazans” was seen hanging from a bridge."
Ok, but you can see similar public sentiment in any war. In fact, the general public in states neighboring Israel sometimes use similar language about erasing Israel.
Widespread expressions of hatred towards an enemy and wishing to see them suffer is as old as war itself. It is not the same as actually committing genocide. At a minimum, genocide requires an actual plan.
Is the Israeli leadership actually planning to "erase" Gazans, or just Hamas? I don't know yet. But the former is definitely not the goal of Biden or der Leyden, and Israeli leadership has definitely been made aware of that.
I get the feeling there's not much that will convince you. Could you tell me what would be an unequivocal example of what a genocide would look like to you in this instance?
If leaders announce (or secretly devise) a plan to resettle Palestinians, kill all Palestinians and/or ethnically cleanse Gaza.
So nothing less than Bibi saying, "I'm gonna do some genocide" would convince you.
Genocide requires a plan, either open or in secret.
And leaders who commit genocide are surprisingly open about it. Putin was open about his plan to erase Ukraine, Milosevic openly removed non-Serbs from Greater Serbia, China openly tries to get rid of Uyghirs...
One comment in isolation can be hand-waved away as not representative. The Professor assembled a plausible case that there is a plan, or at least a consensus, to commit genocide. The examples you cited aren’t very useful, Israel has to moderate its language as it needs the support of the West.
I disagree. The article cherry picked vague statements from three leaders. It ignored other very pointed statements that condemned any attempt at ethnic cleansing or genocide by Israel.
Biden in particular has made it very clear that he expects Palestinian civilians to be treated as any other civilians in wartime, and that there must be a future for them in Gaza.
Your second paragraph explains your first.
Then perhaps you could explain it to me.
I mean, it's the opinion of a well respected (Israeli) historian whose focus is history's largest genocide. Does his opinion not merit your consideration? Who would you have to hear define this as a genocide to begin considering it as such?
It seems you are the one who doesn't understand the term. There's a very specific definition for it established by the UN: https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/genocide.shtml
Namely:
Killing members of the group;
Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group
Nowhere does it say every member of the population needs to be murdered. And Israel is very clearly checking the first three boxes at the very least.
The intent to "destroy, in whole or in part, a ... group" is an essential component of genocide as defined by the UN. Civilian casualties as an inevitable consequence of warfare in a densely populated area are not genocide.
And Isreali officials have repeatedly stated they want Gazans gone, calling them human animals and the like.
And if that wasn't enough, there's this shit.
https://kbin.social/m/worldnews@lemmy.ml/t/588452/Israeli-Government-Mulls-Forcible-Permanent-Transfer-of-2-2-Million-Gaza
I think you're right, in that what Israel has been doing to Palestinians over the past 70+ years is more accurately described as "ethnic cleansing"
Call me when the UN makes a referral to the International Criminal Court. Until then this remains a law broken in your mind.
Are you implying that crimes only exist if they're reported/prosecuted?
Remind me in 2 weeks
Psst, lets not call that guy. His takes are bad and he's universally unpleasant.
As is TinyPizza
The ratio of votes seem to dictate otherwise but I know better than to present a "business" man like you with inconvenient facts.
So you're saying I should take into account fake karma points?
No, I'm saying there's no reasoning with you and I have my fun by getting my business on in the comments and disrupting your little circle jerk. :D
Now honk your nose, clown.
As soon as I figure out what that sentence means I'll get back to you.
The UN Genocide Convention lists five acts that fall under its definition. Israel is currently perpetrating three of these in Gaza: “1. Killing members of the group. 2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group. 3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part.”
Israel has loudly proclaimed this intent. Israeli Minister of Defense Yoav Gallant declared it in no uncertain terms on October 9th: “We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals, and we will act accordingly.”
https://jewishcurrents.org/a-textbook-case-of-genocide
They’re ethnically cleansing Gaza as we speak. I understand you are likely an American with pro-Israel sentiment, likely born out of a respect for the Jewish people and decades of history of America supporting this state, but you need to stop missing the forest for the trees here. They are committing war crimes on the daily, bombing hospitals and refugee camps. This is not acceptable and is a crime against humanity.
This affair began with butchery for sure and yes war crimes. But, I didn't hear your voice when it happened. If you publicly support the innocent Palestinian People, as I do, you had better condemn HAMAS in the same breath.
“I didn’t hear your voice in this” ???
My dude. I’m a random stranger on the internet. You just met me. Come on.
I’ve supported the Palestinian people since day one. And I’ll gladly condemn any he actions or Hamas, though I can understand that the way their people have been treated over the years would lead them to this. It’s Israel’s 9/11. Just like America; this was an inevitability for Israel.
Their people...,
Yeah. The human beings.
Hamas could care less about the Palestinian people.
Source: trust me bro
https://charlotteclymer.substack.com/p/hamas-does-not-care-about-palestinians#details
Ah, right, Hamas is the one committing genocide. Of course! Why didn't we see it before!
https://twitter.com/MEMRIReports/status/1719662664090075199?t=tX8p6HO0QfLq1wwBPqPnXg&s=19