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This is a nonsensical statement that contradicts itself. If all animals have a right to life, then you wouldn't see any issue with a lion murdering a gazelle and then feasting on the victim's body. Alternatively, if you condemn carnivorous animals as murderers, you don't consider carnivores to have a right to life.
Even if we consider this only applies to humans -- what about our pets? Cats are obligate carnivores. How can we feed our pet cats without being complicit in murder and feeding our cats the bodies?
Lions have to eat meat to survive, humans don't. Humans are also moral agents, animals are not.
Should we neuter lions then?
What part of my comment made you think I was arguing for that?
To prevent the reproduction of those who rely on murder. If a person had a genetic disorder where they needed a human heart transplant every year to live do you think they should get it? And even if they do, should they reproduce?
I didn't realize transplants only came from killing people, your totally applicable and thoughtful analogy has me rethinking my life choices now.
Here's a thought experiment for you: if you were on an island, with only the vegan section of a grocery store to eat for survival, would you eat the vegan food?
Can you explain your point a little more?
Sure, which part of that isn't clear for you?
When did I say all transplants require killing someone? I said that a heart transplant required someone with a working heart to die. Just as a lion eating meat requires another animal to die.
Since lions aren't moral agents (look this up if you're unfamiliar with the term, it's not only a vegan term) they don't commit murder when they kill for food. Also, someone dying and donating an organ also isn't murder.
I didn't say they committed murder. I said they rely on the death of others. Why should a species that must lead to the suffering of my others continue to persist if you can end it without harming the animal?
Predators in the wild serve a purpose. Getting rid of all the predators would lead to even more suffering as the prey population would grow and lead to destruction of the environment/ecology, and then mass extinction of plant and animal life.
Vegans are still aware of the circle of life and nature's cycles, we just point out that supermarkets and factory farming have nothing to do with either of those.
I’m pretty sure there are vegan pet foods with similar nutritional profiles
Not for cats. There's a market for vegan cat food, but vets say it doesn't give them the full nutrition they need.
On top of that, I'm always skeptical of vegan foods that are able to meet more comprehensive nutritional profiles. Not their safety or anything, but if they're truly vegan. We can't just synthesize nutrients from chemicals, not en masse. Maybe in a few decades, but for now, those nutrients require incredibly expensive equipment to make from scratch.
Most of the time, the nutrient is extracted, purified, and concentrated from its usual source. Nutrients only found from meat would then need to be extracted from meat, which technically wouldn't be vegan. I think there's some nutrients that we're able to engineer bacteria to produce, which is certainly better from a vegan perspective. Although it begs the question of what vegan ethics around bioengineering bacteria are.
I have to get to work after this, this might be my last response today
I gave it a quick google, and while there aren't many actual studies, the few recent ones I saw seemed to indicate it works fine for cats. Here are three abstracts (click on this sentence to uncollapse them):
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0284132 (Sep. 2023)
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9860667/ (Jan. 2023)
https://bmcvetres.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12917-021-02754-8
Do you have a source that this is true for vegan food? Also, is this actually necessary to meet nutritional needs?
I'm not aware of any nutrients that bacteria, yeast, or other cell cultures cannot be engineered to produce, but I could be wrong
I'm not sure what the angle is here. Microbes are no more sentient than plants.
I'll have to look at those articles, thanks. It might be that they've more recently found formulations that work well as full substitutes. At the very least, it warrants long term study with vets regularly checking vitals and levels.
I don't know if the extraction is necessarily true for vegan foods, that's why I'm rather uncertain about their validity. It seems like bioreactors and bacteria might be the vegan way of making them, which is sensible. I'm just not sure that they'd actually use that for vegan pet food, but it's something for me to check later.
And I didn't mean to take a dig at you with that last line of mine about ethics, sorry about that. I'm not a vegan but I personally think it slippery to define what life is okay to consume and what life isn't. It continues to surprise me what we learn about plants. That said, a plant is a far cry from bacteria, so I see your point.
I appreciate the conversation!