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[-] TechyDad@lemmy.world 58 points 1 year ago

Even worse are the people saying they won't vote for Biden in 2024 because they don't agree with him 100% on certain issues when Trump would be even worse on those issues.

I understand not liking a politician completely. Hillary wasn't my first pick in 2016 and Biden wasn't my first pick in 2020. However, when it became clear that they were the nominee, I backed them over Trump. I'm sure some of these people will back Biden if/when he's the nominee, but a lot of them are declaring that they will sit out the elections if Biden is the nominee because they want things done differently. Meanwhile, if Trump is elected - say, because some left wing voters stay home - these issues will be treated a whole lot worse!

[-] stolid_agnostic@lemmy.ml 19 points 1 year ago

You can count in those who are angry about Palestine here. They are now anti-Biden but can't seem to understand that Biden at his worst is still better than Trump at his best.

[-] sailingbythelee@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

This drives me crazy. Having an essentially neutral stance on anything in the Middle East should be the preferred stance of any US President at this point. It is a no-win quagmire.

There are a few geopolitical aphorisms that Western empires have discovered the hard way and that the US should remember (but probably won't because, you know, US exceptionalism):

Never invade Russia. Never invade Afghanistan. Never fight a land war in Asia. Add to that, never invest any political capital in the Middle East. There is just no winning these conflicts and it is delusional to try. The only way to win conflicts like that is the way Stalin and Mao did it, and that is not our way. These places are the very definition of quagmire for western powers.

Now, imagine if Trump managed to win the next election because young Democratic voters are mad about Biden's stance on Israel/Palestine and decide to stay home on election day. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[-] krashmo@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago

Why is it always progressives who have to hold their nose and "vote blue no matter who"? Centrist Democrats have been driving the car for decades. If you don't let me pick even one stop in 30 years then eventually I'm going to jump out of the car and you'll have to extort gas money from someone else when I do. What you keep asking us to do isn't compromise, it's to stay in an abusive relationship where you get to make all the rules and we deal with it in silence. That only works for so long.

[-] rigatti@lemmy.world 20 points 1 year ago

It's because there aren't enough progressives. I vote as progressive as I can in primaries. For some races it has paid off, and for others, well maybe next time.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 15 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Try building an actual third party. Not by putting someone up for President every 4 years. That's a waste of time, money, and effort. Get people into school boards, city councils, and county comptroller. Then aim for state congress and other positions at the state level. Now push for changing the voting system to something that doesn't have a glaring problem like First Past the Post does.

A huge chunk of the changes progressives want are better done at the state and local level, anyway. Until then, we'll keep getting what we get at the federal level.

[-] Jaysyn@kbin.social 8 points 1 year ago

There is a reason the #GOP is making #RCV illegal where they can.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 4 points 1 year ago

And why the alternative voting systems that do pass are things like RCV that have the lowest likelihood of electing a third party and can still be gamed to spoil the Dems

IRV-RCV is the easiest to understand, but the one we know almost certainly will never make a third party relevant in the US. But it's the only alternative anyone is willing to talk about. Then the GOP makes it illegal anyway.

Something actually effective will simply never pass.

[-] violetraven@lemmy.blahaj.zone 4 points 1 year ago

Just an aside, Massachusetts voted 'no' for RCV a few years ago. I was surprised.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 14 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Why is it always progressives who have to hold their nose and “vote blue no matter who”? Centrist Democrats have been driving the car for decades

Because we're a minority and the options are the party that now gives us significant representation for our demographic (103 members of the House, and 1 (sadface) senator) or the party that thinks anyone left of "moderate-right" should be thrown out of a helecopter over the ocean.

The US is designed to change slowly, and even fixing that is designed to take time.

What you keep asking us to do isn’t compromise, it’s to stay in an abusive relationship where you get to make all the rules and we deal with it in silence

No. What we're asking you to do is pick the loveless relationship where your party buys you supermarket flowers once a year over Jeffery Dahmer. The Dems don't abuse us. We just don't have the votes and constitutents to do something worthwhile. You do realize that if a moderate compromises too progressive, they get replaced with a Republican, right?

So why don't we fight in-party for more representation and educate voters that we're not the boogey man, instead of threatening to murder the whole country to get our way like the bloody Repubs do?

[-] brothershamus@kbin.social 10 points 1 year ago

Because of the electoral college. That forces a two-party system. Which is why we're in this terrible situation.

It also does nothing to stop a progressive from running as a democrat.

Stunt candidates like Jill Stein are grifters who do not give a single solitary fuck about the state of the world, and anyone considering a candidate like that is also extremely unlikely to run themselves.

I have friends who voted for Nader. They thought they were making a statement too. Then we got into Iraq II and they were very upset by it. We also got John "fuck voting righs" Roberts and Samuel "bitches be hoes" Alito out of the deal. Don't be stupid.

Watching a bunch of tiktok gronks give their brilliant hot takes on how they don't have to vote for Biden is like watching a drunken fratboy who's holding everyone's phones dancing on a cliff rim because someone told them not to. Stupid fuck. It doesn't work like that.

[-] lolcatnip@reddthat.com 2 points 1 year ago

It's plurality (a.k.a. FPTP) voting that forces a 2-party system. The main problem with the electoral college is that it gives a structural advantage to voters in low-population states, and those voters are overwhelmingly aligned with Republicans.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 9 points 1 year ago

Funny how Biden turned out to be a lot less centrist than we were expecting. The pendulum is swinging left, and if we don't keep pushing in the right direction the progress will stop. Just because we're not getting everything we want right now doesn't mean we're not in the process of getting there. So stop bitching about how you don't have the perfect candidate right now. Vote in the primaries for the most progressive candidates you can find, and then in the general election vote for the best candidate, even if it's not your preferred choice.

Adulthood is about dealing with the world as it is, not the world we insist we should have. We have to be the adults in the room when no one else is willing.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 17 points 1 year ago

We have to be the adults in the room when no one else is willing.

And in case anybody is wondering about the Republicans not being held to the same standard, that's a consequence of the fact that the changes progressives want require passing new legislation, whereas the changes Republicans want can be achieved through obstruction and sabotage.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 4 points 1 year ago

Just to clarify, I do want to hold Republicans to the same standards. I want their accountability to be conducted through electoral defeats and removing them from power. As difficult as it is to reform the Democrats into the progressive party we need them to be, such a feat is impossible with modern Republicans.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

Just to clarify, I do want to hold Republicans to the same standards.

Oh, sure, I didn't mean to imply otherwise. My comment was more about the practical/structural circumstances that allow them to get away with acting the way they do rather than being about how people feel about it, though.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 2 points 1 year ago

I wasn't assuming you were criticizing anything but Republican behavior. I merely wanted to add on to your comment.

[-] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

There's some interesting pieces that I think have gone unnoticed where rank and file Republicans do want something, but nothing happens. They don't seem to care.

For example, repealing the Hughes Amendment of 1986, which bans the registration of new machine guns for personal use. Lots of gun tote'n NRA members want that gone. Republicans could have easily done it after the 2016 election, where they had both houses of Congress and the White House.

IIRC, there were some bills submitted to committee, where they promptly died. That's it. The only meaningful changes to gun rights under Trump was declaring bump stocks illegal (which lets a semi-auto rifle be fired like a full-auto rifle).

Yet, you don't see any of those NRA members talking about this. They are still lockstep behind the Republican party. Take any equivalent issue on the left, and people want the Democratic party to burn down for not supporting it.

I think there's deep lessons to be learned there about how the rank and file treat their respective standard bearer political party.

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works 2 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

That's a solid point. The GOP couldn't get together to wipe out the ACA because many Republicans actually realized it would fuck them to do so. It was an absolute comical disaster.

They half-gutted it, but we still have enough of it to be far better off than pre-ACA days.

[-] grue@lemmy.world 1 points 1 year ago

Yet, you don’t see any of those NRA members talking about this. They are still lockstep behind the Republican party. Take any equivalent issue on the left, and people want the Democratic party to burn down for not supporting it.

I think there’s deep lessons to be learned there about how the rank and file treat their respective standard bearer political party.

This Alt-Right Playbook video does an excellent job of explaining that, IMO. (I linked to the specific timestamp where the explanation starts, but I recommend watching from the beginning for context.)

[-] krashmo@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

Adulthood is about dealing with the world as it is, not the world we insist we should have.

Which is why centrist Democrats saw the polling data saying Bernie Sanders performed better against Trump than Clinton or Biden and decided to throw their support behind him in both elections rather than forcing us to stick with the candidate they wanted, right? Wait a minute...

[-] abraxas@sh.itjust.works -2 points 1 year ago

The same Berniecrats who could have had a progressive in the General in 2020 if they'd been willing to go for Warren (who was outpolling Bernie in the Primaries AND comparable in the General until the shitshow that cost them both the primary)

The thing with Primaries is that they're like RCV. The most votes wins the Primary. If your second choice isn't "whoever won the Dem primary", then you're the problem, whether your first was Biden, Bernie, or Elmo.

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[-] frezik@midwest.social 1 points 1 year ago

More to the left than expected, but I wasn't expecting much. That's not a win.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one 3 points 1 year ago

It's not perfect, therefore it's not enough? Seriously?

You should read this: https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/logicalfallacies/Nirvana-Fallacy

[-] frezik@midwest.social 4 points 1 year ago

I didn't claim that. I voted for Biden, and I expect to do so again. I would very much like a better candidate. Tossing around logical fallacies isn't a good look when you're also jumping to conclusions.

[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one -1 points 1 year ago

Because you already provided the context needed to make a positive contribution to the discussion and avoid misunderstandings, right?

Right?

[-] frezik@midwest.social 2 points 1 year ago
[-] spaceghoti@lemmy.one -2 points 1 year ago

Oh look, a different thread! That sure clarifies things

[-] ira@lemmy.ml 0 points 1 year ago

Idk unlimited sales of arms to fascists like Itamar Ben-Gvir seems pretty far right to me

[-] MegaUltraChicken@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

And enabling Trump to sell more arms to more fascists is better how?

[-] ira@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 year ago

I'd argue that Biden is the one enabling Trump here

[-] Jaysyn@kbin.social 3 points 1 year ago

Tell me you don't understand math & game theory without telling me you don't understand math & game theory.

[-] CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world 3 points 1 year ago

What is the viable option, then?

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this post was submitted on 27 Nov 2023
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