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this post was submitted on 15 Dec 2023
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Ok now I'm drinking your Kool-Aid. However, the one caveat I would make is that it isn't really "Hamas" here, it's Iran, encouraging Hamas. Suffice it to say, there's lots of political puppetry going on in this region.
The vast majority of Palestinians weren't alive for the last Yom Kippur war - 50 years ago to the day of the 7 October holiday. Bibi was alive. It stands to reason that most Palestinians don't even know what happened back then, let alone remembering it, but Bibi absolutely should have expected something on such a key anniversary. Instead, beforehand Bibi stirred shit with all the IDF troops, left weak border security on the day with clear single points of failure, then claimed ignorance when everything hit the fan.
However, him directing war crimes does not absolve the Israel troops who are actually committing war crimes. Both should be punished.
All pre-october apartheid war crimes absolutely. They don't change bc of October and the collective punishment of civilians war crimes and more need to be held ICC.
But post October and until Hamas is gone, I think proving war crimes would be exceptionally difficult. Because of how they operate and their provable intent to cause as many casualties as possible, it makes it difficult to argue protected status for most targets right now.
100% with you, this isn't just Hamas, it's Iran, Quatar, Iraq, Hezbollah (not all of Lebanon), Houthis (not all of Yemen), and on and on. Pretending this is just Hamas is a bad call for sure. Most here do it here for ignorance or to feed an intentional false narrative about an underdog.
See I think the key point is that you assume at least half of all Gazans are guilty alongside Hamas because >50% of people in Gaza supported Hamas in the 2007 elections. Even assuming similar proportions now, I would argue that a large number of that supporting group are only the victims of propaganda, rather than organically and sincerely taking that position.
There were more than 2 million people in the Gaza strip, of which only 50,000 were members of Hamas. The rest are civilians, people who on one side face repression from Israelis and on the other face Hamas telling them they can make things better.
First, I definitely think you are right that they're victims of propaganda. And then I ask myself, would that knowledge have me feel less recriminations to someone in the Klan who bought into their propaganda and lynched a man? And the answer, for me personally, is no.
No, I'm responding to the recent poll, the current best data we have.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/palestinian-poll-finds-strong-support-for-hamas-oct-7-attacks-river-to-the-sea-state/ar-AA1k6mEx
Lots of sources have reported on it. If you don't like that one you can find mNy more.
That's where you draw a fictional strawman, one that isn't you, and claim that you would be far more righteous and not fall for it.
It's strange how you would refer to a recent poll, promoted by the IDF but yet fundamentally queried by Palestinian government, yet at the same time the IDF completely disregards (and yet doesn't offer its own number) for the casualty numbers provided by Palestine. It reeks of cherry picking the numbers that suit your argument.
Israel have, so far, killed more than 10x the number of people Hamas did in one day. When is enough, enough?
How many Palestinian civilians need to die before Israel is satisfied?
Let me try and clarify, this was an independent poll conducted by the Arab World for Research and Development. An independent Arab polling organization. It wasn't conducted by Hamas or the IDF or the PA, etc.
And as I've said many times, I don't evaluate a conflict by whether one side has more casualties. The corollary is that the conflict would be more acceptable if more people died on the other side. Knowing that's false let's us know that the logic attempted has derailed. It's simply ethically and morally bankrupt.
I also understand using a debate tactic to attack the data when it's saying something that's not compatible / supportive of the narrative one is pushing.
I'm happy to look at a different recent poll, or look at a source of yours why this isn't the most recent and best numbers we have. I would love it if support for Hamas wasn't so high and would be really pleased if the October attack was condemned and not celebrated.
You still have avoided answering my key questions.
Israel refute the Gaza deathtoll lfrom Palestinian sources as false. However, Israel do not publish their own numbers to support their objections.
How many civilians are acceptable casualties in Gaza, as far as the IDF are concerned??
The IDF have been tacitly reluctant in answering this question.
Their avoidance here us only just shy of accountability for their actions, if it even meets that bar.
The first one, what's the question?
I'm sure any sane person would answer no civilians casualties are acceptable. Which one of many reasons why Hamas must be eradicated, co-locating to intentionally cause the death of civilians. It's why what Hamas is doing by co-locating is one of the worst war crimes.
As for reluctance, I think it's about everyone knows that nobody except Hamas wants civilian casualties. Look even here on worldnews how successful they've been with that propaganda.
And that doesn't even mention the regular attacks by Iraq, Houthis, Syrians, etc on US troops and civilian shipping lanes.