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Spoderman
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 16 Dec 2023
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Give it a break. One of Israel's staunchest allies since the start was West Germany - which enthusiastically co-operated with Israel while Israel was fully aware that it's intelligence services were jam-packed with nazis. Israel only hunted the nazis that were convenient to hunt.
Birds of a feather and all that.
The ones working for west Germany, as well as America weren't hiding, they were useful. Their targets were the one who were useless alive for anything other than getting revenge against.
The key is they had a good excuse to build a highly effective surveillance and infiltration system. It also was/is skilled at getting their hands dirty on foreign soil, while keeping the mess contained. At the time, they have a worthy target. As time went on, the number of targets dropped. The system in place was then turned to other uses.
I always see historical fallacy being used to suit their own biases and frankly I am getting tired of it. While many Nazis and collaborators weren't prosecuted, and they should have been, did West Germany still have laws prosecuting Jews and other minorities after the war? The fact that you will be prosecuted for doing Nazi salutes and symbols in Germany says a lot. Post-war Germany is not the same as Nazi Germany as evidence show, for crying out loud.
I know Lemmy is as left leaning as Reddit, but as a left leaning minority myself, these shoehorning and virtue signaling from the left is cringey af.
Funny you should mention that...
I guess it's true what they say... underneath the liberal 1st world pretensions it's still the same old Europe.
Let's be clear on one thing... the nazis were not some "aberration" - the predatory and parasitic socio-economic systems that enabled and nurtured them is still very much alive and kicking in (so-called) "western civilization."
Interesting, I hadn't realised that. Thanks for sharing. It did take a long time for Germany to come to terms with their past. It was the children and grandchildren of the war generation who fully acknowledges and admit of the atrocities. But even so, that hasn't really got to do with Germany somehow influencing Israeli state's policies, unless there is evidence to show for.
Have they?
Germany is still controlled by the same kind of capitalists that funded the nazis to protect them from working-class revolt. Germany is still controlled by the same kind of politicians that gave up power to the nazis out of political expediency. Germany went from being a fascist state to enabling another pretty darn obvious one - Israel.
No, I think Germany has no more "come to terms with it's past" than any other colonizer state.
Germany aiding and abetting a genocidal white supremacist settler-colonial state has got nothing to do with this?
Nothing at all, eh?
Another leftist overreaching and attribution bias that make my eyes roll everytime. Just because a society is capitalist it doesn't mean they're Nazis. Norway and Denmark are capitalists albeit have very strong social protections and regulations. Germany is similar. Fascism has a specific meaning than just "capitalist". Just because you don't like something, you just can't call it "fascist." Germany isn't perfect but by no means they are still Nazis or fascists. They accepted refugees en masse, second to Sweden. How does that sound like Nazi to you?
And this is another case of oversimplifying complex issues and requires a lot of unpacking. It's a chicken or egg scenario. There are those who agreed to the creation of Israeli state, but then there are those who hasn't-- which led to the conflict as it were now. Israel did not start as a fascist state-- they have been ruled by a left-wing party in the first half of their existence. But tensions and refusal by Arab states to recognise Israel put Israelis into a siege mentality. This created a cycle of violence as Israel turned to become more vengeful and right-wing due to the past conflicts and invasion. Eventually, and at the very least, Arab states came to terms that Israel is here to stay. However, more radical Muslim Arab paramilitary factions are still prodding Israel. The latest of that prodding is from Hamas.
Now, of course, as the UN secretary general said, Hamas violence did not start in a vacuum. Israel had been treating Palestinians as second class citizens. But it's also because Israel have developed a siege mentality for aforementioned reasons, which they retaliate in return but also makes Palestinians seek vengeance in return as well. And the cycle of revanchism continues. "An eye of an eye makes us all blind", and that is precisely what is happening. This, however, does not excuse Hamas attack on October 7, nor Israel's treatment of Palestinians.
However, even with all that, Israel is still far from being a fascist in spite of the military supremacy in the region. Being far-right or right-wing does not mean they're fascist. They still have election and Netanyahu's party is actually unpopular and clings dearly to forming coalitions. Israel is still open to negotiations and as a matter of fact-- before the Hamas attack in October 7, there was meant to be a deal to be signed between Saudi and Israel for closer cooperation in exchange to unequivocally giving up occupied settlements in West Bank. But Hamas derailed that at the last minute with their attack. I bet you did not hear that? That being said, Israel is far from being a fascist because they still allow elections and decorum (until debatably recently which I will get to that later). Fascists don't do that as they would limit free and fair elections. Fascism has more specific criteria than just being capitalist or anything you don't like. I suggest you read on Umberto Eco's 14 characteristics of fascism instead of just throwing labels.
While I do not agree with providing Israel more aid (they received more than enough in all these years), attributing Germany as still "nazi" or "fascist" simply because they help Israel does not make Germany "fascist". And by the way, the FT article you linked is one month and a half old, before Israel's fascistic behaviour in invading Gaza strip. So, Germany gave aid to Israel before the invasion of Gaza so they could not have known how Israel would do. This does not make Germany fascist. You could accuse these countries too as fascist for supporting Israel for being invaded. Throwing labels willy nilly on something you don't like and don't know the meaning, dilutes the meaning and significance of the term. It's not intellectually productive and is lazy. This is what Slavoj Zizek have railed against with liberals and left just throwing buzzwords.
Roll your eyes until they're doing somersaults, Clyde... capitalism doesn't cease working the way it works just because you find it's thoroughly predicted outcomes inconvenient for the fairy tale you wish you were existing in.
Are you referring to this, Clyde?
Gee... how is that whole "see no fascism, hear no fascism, speak no fascism" thing working out for you?
Riiiiight... white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it's almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
It's not as if the uber-examples of fascist states we have were all frustrated colonizers, or the fact that the most prolific sponsor of fascist terrorism in world history also happens to be the world's most prolific neocolonialist.
Yep... pure coincidence all round, Clyde.
Right... they can't be fascist if you so desperately want them to be the "good guys," right?
Oh, of course... it's all the Palestinians' fault, right? And if Jewish people would just have stopped with their nasty "Jewish-Bolshevism" Hitler wouldn't have been forced into perpetrating the Holocaust, right?
What else do you have for me, apologist?
Oh, I'm very familiar with Eco's little list - it's a perfectly flawed and dangerous misunderstanding of what fascism really is. But liberals love it because Eco treats fascism as some kind of aberration to liberals' precious little classical liberal nation-state - which is why people like you cannot recognize it when it is literally staring you in the face.
Sooooo... Germany gave aid to a white supremacist settler-colonialist state before said white supremacist settler-colonialist state did the very thing white supremacist settler-colonialist states always do?
Could you actually quote somebody less irrelevant?
We're talking about post-war Germany. Are CDU and SDF, both parties that have ruled Germany after World War 2, far-right? The rise of modern German far right is way after Germany accepted refugees in 2015. You're just showing that anyone you don't agree with is fascist by shoehorning after the fact examples that you miscontrue to fit your bias. If this is a court of law, it will not go down well for you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it seems to me you have no idea about international politics or politics in general. Come back when you know more.
Riiiiight... white supremacist settler-colonialism and fascism are totally not so intimately and indelibly linked that it's almost impossible to tell where one starts and the other ends, eh Clyde?
Palestine did agree initially, but then there was a civil war among Palestinians afterwards. If you actually know history you would know, but instead you keep parroting the same talking points.
Well now, as I suspected, so you weren't aware that Israel was going to give up settlements in West Bank, as demanded by Saudi Arabia as part of the deal? If you just get out of your naive lefty bubble, you would know. And it seems to me that you're not acknowledging Hamas as a terror group despite taking foreign nationals as hostages? Am I reading that right? I never blamed Palestinians. Are you aware that Hamas does not mean Palestinians?
It is easy for someone to parse complicated and tangled mess with simple narrative and bitesize without seeing the full picture, because the average human brain-- stil unevolved from our lizard ancestors-- could not cope with massive amount of information and resort to heuristics. Go watch the video explaining the run up before Hamas attack, when Israel and Saudi were about sign a deal, part of which Israel was going to give up occupied settlements. Or if it is tldr for you, here is a9 minute run down.
Eco and other's have overlap on what they consider to be fascist. Is Germany militaristic and ultranationalist after World War 2 despite budget cuts on the military and taboo if one proclaims to be nationalist? They allowed Turkish migrants after World War 2 to fill labour shortage. How does that even sound fascist to you? You just want to call anyone you don't like fascist. Because for you it is easy to stereotype because it doesn't involve much thinking.
Slavoj Zizek is perfectly relevant. Because the left has a certain naivete and blindspot with their worldview, which he has commented upon.
Yes we are. The real one... not the fantasy one you were sold.
How far to the right was the German politicians that sicced the far-right on the German populace during the socialist uprisings after WW1, Clyde? You seem to be under the impression that your (so-called) "moderates" and "liberals" have never allied themselves with fascists - and that's quite laughable because Germany is the ur-example that perfectly demonstrates what function the fascist element plays in the modern classical liberal nation-state... and why liberal political establishments keep them around.
In fact... fascists cannot gain power without the aid of (supposedly) "moderate" political establishments unlocking the gates for them. Nothing surprising about that... after all - liberals and fascists share the same end-goal... the preservation of their precious status quo.
And we know how allergic liberals are to getting their hands bloody, don't we, Clyde?
Oh look... the "centrist understander" thinks they have a leg to stand on. Let's put that to the test, shall we?
I guess Hamas only recruits Inuits and Mongolians, then?
Lol! Yeah... they allowed Jewish and Slavic labor during the war, too.
Centrist, do you have anything to justify your fairy tale peddling that doesn't just exist out of the same canned and thoroughly debunked liberal bullcrap I've heard a thousand times before?
Projection. You call everything fascist you don't agree with it. You are like someone who calls everything gay that you don't like. For you, a capitalist country is fascist including social democrats like Scandinavia. The fantasy one sold to you is if the world is democratic socialist or communist then only it can't be fascist. You are embodying precisely what Slavoj Zizek comments, a naive, high-on-the-horse leftist who hasn't touched grass. Come back when you educate yourself.
Do you realise there is PLO? Of course not, you just repeat whatever is said like a parrot.
Lol! Are we getting a bit flustered, enlightened centrist?
Come now... be honest. What were you doing when antifa was throwing down with fascists in the streets?
Want me to take a stab at it? I'd guess you were heckling those antifascists real hard, weren't you? After all... how dare those troublemakers invite real fascism by harrassing those totally not-neo-nazis and their police allies while they were innocently walking down the streets, eh?
Fascists can always find a use for centrists... after all - it's pretty much proven that centrists pose no threat to them. That must be a pretty comforting thought for you.
Can't rebut anything and resort to usual lefty parroting points and buzzwords. Can't admit you don't know anything about the wider world apart from the naive lefty narrative you just regurgitate. Sure, call everything gay on anything you don't like. That's how you were conditioned. You pretend you're not a bigot but you are. Come back to the big boy's table when you've grown up. Oh wait... probably too late for you.
And I am guessing you only condone violence if it only serves you. So are you condoning Hamas taking foreign hostages who have nothing to do with the conflict? Least critical thinking troll.
Oh, you are absolutely correct, centrist - I cannot rebut the "see no fascism, hear no fascism, speak no fascism" fairy tale you are peddling. That is, after all, the point of this particular fairy tale, is it not?
But, as the recent collapse of the pro-Israeli propaganda consensus has demonstrated, you might find that your fairy tale convinces fewer and fewer people going forward.
I suggest you keep an eye on your copium stocks - you might need more than you think.
Did you just tacitly admit you support Hamas taking hostages by not acknowledging it? Do you support violence only if it agrees with you?
You just showed you have zero knowledge of the world other than what World Socialist Website tells you to think.
Most critical thinking tankie.
I'm perfectly fine with Hamas taking prisoners - oops, sorry, I forgot we only call them prisoners when states do it.
Sooooo... there was something you were going to flex about, centrist?
Oh look... the enlightened centrist understander predictably doesn't understand the terms they are throwing around.
Yawn.
It's not crime to take foreign nationals that have no stakes in conflict if your side does it. Spoken like a true tankie.
They knew what they were doing when they patronized a white supremacist settler-colonialist state.
I've never bothered to find out... can you actually see the walls of the world's largest concentration camp from the venue they were holding that rave festival at?
Oh look… the enlightened centrist understander predictably still doesn’t understand the terms they are throwing around.
Yawn... again.
Oh lord, whatever you say tankie.
I wouldn't appeal to Jesus if I was you, centrist - being neither hot nor cold famously did not appeal much to the world's most famous socialist.
Oh look… the enlightened centrist understander predictably still doesn’t understand the terms they are throwing around.
Yawn… again.
Well you don't need religion to have moral compass, but tankies certainly have none that much is clear.
Oh look… the enlightened centrist understander predictably still doesn’t understand the terms they are throwing around.
Yawn… again.