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this post was submitted on 17 Dec 2023
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My perspective on war is so corrupted, at this point.
At one hand I want peace in Europe but on the other Hand I know Russia won't stop until they are beaten so getting NATO involved might end this conflict faster.
I've wanted to fight Russia since they annexed Crimea. I knew it wouldn't end there, and I was proven right. If they manage to obtain the natural resources of Ukraine then it will just keep escalating. The thing is, though, Russia has lost so many troops that they could easily be swept, right now. Now has never been a better time for either the EU or NATO to force Russia into demilitarization and reparations, as well as putting more economic pressure on the Chinese Dictatorship.
One thing I don't want, though, is a direct conflict with China. Those fuckers need to try fixing their own shit, first. Idk if that makes me strong against the weak and weak against the strong, but there is simply too much to lose for all sides in that sort of conflict, unlike the very weakened and destabilized Russia.
I just feel hopeless tbh. It feels like diplomacy failed or was the wrong tool to begin with. You can't argue with someone when their point is, "I want your land and you dead." Every Compromise seems to be a loss at this situation. War is never good. But is not going to War even worse? I just don't know anymore.
I'm in an even worse mental state over this, I see war with the violators as a clear logical conclusion with great benefit for future generations, but my state is going to sit on their asses and do nothing.
I appreciate a careful consideration of going to War but now it seems to set a dangerous precedent. And no one really know what will happen if Russia attacks, let's say Poland or one of the Baltic states. Is NATO really ready for nuclear War? Or will they just shy away because it's too risky? Maybe I'm just pessimistic about the whole thing but how could you be not?
NATO will retaliate with nuclear weapons if it detects that nuclear weapons have been launched by the enemy. So the response would be conventional.
Mutually Assured Destruction has been around for so long that nobody can possibly win in Nuclear War. In fact, Ukraine is a nation with Nuclear capacity, since they obtained 1,700+ Soviet Era nuclear weapons upon their independence in 1991. If Russia was going to pull the Nuclear War card they would have done so a long ass time ago.
If Russia Attacks a much stronger nation than Ukraine like Finland, then we know exactly what will happen. The will be absolutely decimated in land and population to say the least. Modern Russia was always a paper tiger but it has become even weaker with its failed invasion.
I’m sure you’ll be the first to volunteer for the front lines then.
Exactly. I hate when people lead off with that. It assumes their personal involvement in the war does anything other than make themselves feel less hopeless.
I understand their point from a geopolitical strategy perspective, but you always have to step back and ask yourself if you'd be willing to personally sign up. I would love to see Russia beaten and Putin ousted too, but I'm not willing to physically go do that, so I can't exactly expect others to.
Not to mention, I'm old enough to know that it would never go as planned. We'd end up in forever war that kills thousands and thousands of innocent people and puts warlords in charge instead of a clean coup and instant transition to peaceful democracy.
Exactly for real, mate, I'd be digging those trenches. Didn't expect that, did you? Thought you had the ultimate "Gotcha!" but no. I'm probably one of the few people in this comment section even fit to serve. Parrot more talking points, why not?
Oof.
Let us know when you join the army. We'll be sure to applaud and throw a party for you.
Why would I join up to fight for oil? I just explained that the source of my frustration is the fight that I want to fight is not a priority of my nation.
Idk you seem pretty vocal about joining.
Sorry, what is your argument here? That if I'm not willing to fight for the profits of companies that I also wouldn't be willing to fight an actual threat to millions of people? Is that it? You feel like as long as I'm not being deployed to topple a democracy in South America, Africa, or the Middle East that you've somehow won here? I clearly overestimated your intelligence, I think I'll leave the conversation here.
Goddamn right I would. Finally a cause worth fighting for, many Americans would view it as a dream come true.
Never going to happen. Russia has nukes, remember?
how many of them are correctly mantained and in working conditions?
1% would be enough
Maybe. The issue is we don't know. Are our missile defense systems able to take down that 1%? How reliably? What if that's 5% instead?
It's all a game of probability, and all it takes is 1 missile to slip through. The only 0% chance is if no nukes are fired in the first place.
So does Ukraine, so why hasn't Russia tried anything with them? Oh because there is no winning a Nuclear War, idiot.
Russia isn't threatened behind their own borders by Ukraine. If a NATO army were to invade Russia however, and Putin has his back against the wall, then I'm not sure he wouldn't order that button to be pressed.
I suppose he could threaten foreign nations who breach the borders, but it's not accurate to say they aren't currently threatened behind their own borders. Russia recently lost a major railway connecting to china to the war, and a few months ago there was a military coup that had Putin hiding in a bunker.
Fair point, but it's still not quite the same as foreign soldiers on russian soil.
It's really disappointing, isn't it? Putin has been given every opportunity to stop the invasion or not even start it in the first place, and in ways that would help him save face. He's rejected all of that and insists on only violence. The only response to that is returning the violence. Defending Ukraine is the most unquestionably morally correct military action I've seen in my life.
It also brings up an interesting observation -- to have a peaceful society, you have to be willing to violently defend it. If another party insists you give into their demands or they'll get violent, you have to eventually oppose them. Otherwise, if you constantly submit to them in the name of peace, they'll eventually take away your peace. Just like a tolerant society must reject intolerant views, a peaceful society must be willing to defend themselves in war.
As long as we have the freedom to live in peace, we ought to.
But the freedom doesn’t come free of charge.
We should carve out the freedom to live in peace when we're unable to.
If it weren't for the existence of Russia's massive fleet of nuclear weapons (which probably don't actually work but it's a hell of a risk) i'm sure NATO would have already got involved.
The only reasonable way I can see this war ending is if the internal politics of Russia decide Putin is now too much of a problem and deal with him themselves. Then whoever takes charge backs out of Ukraine because it's not a winnable conflict.
I can't see how anyone external can bring about an end to the conflict without risking massive escalation.
Getting NATO directly involved will not end but will rather escalate the conflict.
You can't win a war, let alone against a nuclear state. This wouldn't end well.
Is there any alternative? Ukraine can't fight forever, and Russia won't stop.
Poland, Finland, Germany and others are also no nuclear States. Will the threat of nuclear retaliation and counter-attack from their allies really stop Russia, or will they just wait a couple of years and then try this shit again with other states? Or do everyone needs to gearup again? I have no Idea anymore.
There is about 0 real solutions here, mostly just keeping war of attrition, which slowly drains Russian economy without reasonably allowing it to escalate. It is super bloody though, and it is not an option to choose willingly for either side.
The only thing dumber than NATO doing direct strikes on Russia is Russia doing direct strikes on NATO. This is why Ukraine not joining NATO is such a big talking point in negotiations. If Ukraine goes NATO, Russia won't be able to exert any military control over it anymore.
We all don't need a war with China and we don't need a war with Russia... We need to allow the Russian people and Chinese people to have a full democracy not a fake democracy, not a flawed democracy, but a full democracy ( like Ireland for example).
We don't need anymore killing or wars or any of it; really. We need to act like one earth and share resources and save the planet...
Democracies tend to get along with other democracies... That's the only reason I bring it up 😉
Right and how are we going to encourage that state of affairs? Because we tried asking really nicely and that didn't work we tried sanctions and that didn't work and the people don't seem that interested in rising up themselves so what do we do?
The options are war or to ignore it.
Rising up themselves?
They did and they also left the country. The ones who were able to anyways. The rest are brainwashed.
No one is ignoring anything and Russian army is at great fatigue...
I don't know what the solution is. But new conflicts and wars aren't a solution at all. Just a step closer to WW/// OR global genocide by nuclear weapons= mass extinction of humans ... And probably a big loss of knowledge; history; culture ETC.
NTHX
Thanks for the downvotes. You all don't think WW/// or nuclear war can happen/is possibilities?
Oh crap, I guess we didn't realize we were sitting on the remote with the button that prevented that!
Honestly, I appreciate the "good vibes" tone here but it's painfully naive in any practical sense.
Ye, "allow" / help.
If Russia doesn't have intervention and doesn't get reformed by other countries it will ALWAYS go back to its corrupt/crooked ways. If it's closed off like North Korea it will absolutely be even more extremist then now. And now is pretty fucking bad already.
Think Japan and Germany... If they didn't have the world get involved, they'd still be what they were in WW2.
I'm not sure there is a way to "help" other than war, unfortunately
Edit: which is a pretty crappy wayto help