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What happened to the Crimea bridge and why is it important?
(www.aljazeera.com)
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this post was submitted on 17 Jul 2023
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Yes. I could not give a shit about "territorial integrity". This is nationalism. I'm not a nationalist, I don't like states especially bourgeoise states.
You are putting nationalism ahead of people's lives.
No it isn't. It's for the Ukrainian rulers to decide. The people don't get any choice in it, that's the problem. And everyone that opposed this war was rounded up and arrested, every left wing party in the country was shut down, and the left wing tv channels were also shut down, all under the "they're pro russia" excuse simply for being against the war. There is no "let the ukrainians decide" under that environment.
You really seem to enjoy crafting strawman arguments.
Ukraine is fighting an existential war. Boosting nationalism is a way to cope with that and survive. I hate that nationalistic shit myself, but in their situation Ukrainians are both allowed to express themselves in a nationalistic way as well as fight back. And from the viewpoint of opposing nationalism: the fact that Ukrainians are more nationalistic, was mostly caused by drum roll Russia.
Ukrainian rulers appointed by the Ukrainians in free and increasingly transparent elections. In representative democracy, it's the representatives job to decide on behalf of the pople. Also, Zelensky is hugely popular president with support from the opposition too. Most of Ukraine support their leaders and they have a mandate from the people (especially the president).
You seem to confuse being leftist and a pro russian. The way I see it, they closed pro-Russian stations, some of which claimed themselves to be leftist. During a war, anti-war channels usually tend to go silent too (wonder why).
As a person many would call a left leaning socialist myself, I find it astonishing how some self-proclaimed leftists are hell bent on claiming that Russian Federation was somehow a champion of socialist values. In fact, it's pretty much the exact opposite of those and has nothing to do with leftist or socialist values.
Also, if you identify as a leftist and support Russia to oppose the US or "the West", you really need to:
What strawman did i craft?
No it isn't. As you will see when this ends with both a Ukraine and a Russia existing afterwards. This nonsense is just devoid of any realistic understanding of the circumstances that created this war or any general understanding of how wars end.
God I do hate the way americans speak "free and transparent" christ. It's like talking to a robot. The current state was created in a US backed far right revolution. Under no circumstances can you call its elections "free". The left in particular was not allowed to participate in the 2019 election, candidacy being refused. You can not call an election "free" while banning the left from participation and only putting up a bunch of utterly shit candidates that nobody wants, the man had a 31% approval rating and every single poll since the war began excludes the regions that matter most - Donetsk, Luhansk and Crimea.
There is nothing I can ever say to get you to stop using this as an excuse. For you, calling anything "pro Russia" enables you to close your brain down and ignore reality.
Absolutely nobody here has said that. You are now literally making shit up. Russia is a capitalist shithole and I want to see its end just as much as America.
Once again you are saying things I have not said. LISTEN to the words I say instead of making up your own shit.
I have read more than you my "left leaning" (lmao "hello fellow socialists!") friend.
Once again, you're being a tit. You have invented a cartoon character in your head to imagine me as instead of actually listening to any of the words I say. I think this conversation is no longer worth wasting my time with.
See your own post above😀
For Ukraine it is first and foremost a defensive war to survive as a sovereign state. It is not a matter of an opinion. Second aim is to cement their country as part of "the West" via EU and Nato. If you wish, I'd be to happy to hear what you think Ukraine is fighting for.
Yeah, I don't like the way most Americans speak either. That however, has nothing to do with our discussion here (another straw man, yay!).
The rest of your argument is just parroting what Russia has been saying at least since the beginning of their invasion. I suppose you are Ukrainian, since you know so much about how people there feel about Zelensky and the leadership? Because the stuff the rest of see from reliable, many times first hand sources, paints a very different picture from yours.
Using what as an excuse? Calling a Russian supporter pro Russian? Blimey!
Now we found a common ground of sorts. Although I am sure our view on how that can be achieved differ quite alot. Sorry that I assumed too much, but this is a common phenomenon that I see a lot on internet.
To be honest, that comment was not directly aimed at you, but to anyone identifying as a leftist and siding with Russia and repeating their talking points. I honestly believe there is a huge contradiction in there. I could've been clearer, but I still stand by those words.
And just to make it clear, I did not wish to cause you any frustration or even win an argument. I just wanted to point out things in your arguments that I find peculiar or simply misreprestative of the situation with Ukraine and Russia. I am also genuinely interested in understanding where such opinions stem from. So no, I don't see you as a cartoon character, just a fellow lemming 😘
This is just not good faith and seeing this behaviour at the start of a post just makes me not bother reading the rest.
I am sorry. That was not my intention.
Yet my points remain the same 🙂
Support for the war is high in Ukraine. Where did you get your sources for freedom of speech being suspended in Ukraine and people with anti war sentiments getting arrested?
It’s ironic, you claim to care about the people, but you don’t care about what the people of Ukraine actually want.
Unreliable after everyone that opposed the war was arrested, or taped to lampposts and beaten in the state's terror campaign carried out early on. My friends won't openly say anything to government sources or ""media"".
Every single left wing party in the country was literally banned. If you don't support the war you labelled "pro russia". It's not difficult to find examples of these arrests, and it's not difficult to find the videos of the terror campaign that was waged. If you want some of those videos I can go find them for you but it's pretty distressing watching hundreds of very deliberately public beatings to put fear into people, I really don't recommend.
Such freedom!
I see, thank you for letting me know! I see this is indeed more nuanced than I had thought.
Can you provide any proof of the “tied to lampposts” claim? I’m fine with seeing video proof if you have it
Sure, March 2022. This was a light terror-campaign waged by Ukraine to bring citizenry that were anti-war inline. Do some very public punishments and shaming in order to inflict fear into people about the consequences of talking or opposing the regime. This was all on Twitter but as with most things in this war Telegram is the only place to get it from.
Here are some examples:, CONTENT WARNING: Beatings, nudity and some racial violence.
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/3
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/13
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/33
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/48
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/58
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/64
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/89
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/91
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/111
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/117
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/118
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/119
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/120
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/121
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/122
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/123
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/168
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/169
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/170
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/171
https://t.me/UkraineHumanRightsAbuses/182
I'm not going to be a moralist about terror campaigns, they get waged quite often in countries at war because they work very well. The first thing socialists would do in a post-revolutionary country is wage a terror campaign to reduce the opposition. The only reason I raise these is because libs arguing that the people are "free" at the moment in this country are deluded about the reality of the situation.
I recommend caution and critical thinking with that Telegram account too. It's not just anti-war it's pro-russia. The campaign that was waged shortly after the start of the war can't really be denied though, there's a lot more than this but I think it effectively paints the picture.
Wow, I see. Thank you for letting me see the evidence with my own eyes, and for your patience in this discussion. I’m sorry I was too quick to accuse you of bias.
Honestly, this should be made more accessible than a Telegram post. But I guess it is hard to do alternative hosting.
We're all biased. I think you're right to assume anyone is. I just don't stop pursuing more information on account of wanting to doggedly hold a single position.
It was more accessible than a telegram post. But Twitter went on a very significant banning spree near the start of the war against anyone that was posting significant content that made ukraine look bad.
My position on the war can be summed up as:
Ukraine had a significant nazi problem before the war. It has worsened significantly since, contrary to the media presenting it as non-existent.
The war was avoidable. But both nato and Russia could not come to terms.
Nato, Ukraine and Russia all fucking suck and hundreds of thousands of families are being thrown into a meat grinder over global power shit that does not help anyone. I couldn't give a shit who is in charge of what, I can't stand any of them, the lives are more valuable to me than states or borders.
This has nothing to do with genocide. But as with all wars there are war crimes being committed. The genocide angle is a convenient way to avoid the more complicated topic of the reason this war is happening, and it gives people a simple way to defend the continuation of the war by claiming that ending the war would result in a mass genocide (if that were the case they could just take up arms again when peace doesn't work).
Anyone claiming this is what people want is full of shit there is no freedom. Don't get me started on the conscription gangs that go around beating and kidnapping any able-bodied men they see on the streets. There's as many videos of that lately as there were of the terror campaign waged near the start.
Only the US and Russia sitting down will end the war. The Ukrainian state has zero say in it. And neither do the people. Which as I keep pointing out are 2 separate entities that should be seen as such in every capitalist nation. Americans have zero say in what forever wars their rulers constantly get them into either. The sooner this happens the sooner lives stop being wasted and destroyed.