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this post was submitted on 25 Dec 2023
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The part regarding your personal relationship to women who suffer abuse is a commentary on the fact that you're talking about something you don't even have personal experience about. Who are you to tell women not to take offense to a joke by a politician about drugging his wife? It's not in a vacuum. It's not like he's sitting on a beach somewhere talking about some far off world that he himself is not a part of in any context. He's a real person talking to real people, many of whom have suffered abuse at the hands of men.
Why would it be in bad taste if it had nothing to do with abusing women? Why would the joke be funny if that wasn't a real thing that actually happened? Why was the joke that he's drugging her specifically, if that had no relationship to the real world and a real thing that could actually happen? Like any "poor taste" joke, it doesn't have that designation for no reason. Men do drug women. That's a real thing that actually happens. The implication of the joke is that to get the "woman he wants" its necessary for him to exert control over her agency by depriving her of her awareness. Which, again, is a real thing that happens. A horrible thing that happens.
Someone doesn't have to declare "I hate X group of people" to be bigoted against them. And someone's actions can be bigoted without the express purpose of spreading bigotry. It's a really simple fix honestly. "I'm sorry, I won't joke about abusing my wife again". We're not asking for the moon. But leave it up to men to flip the fuck out when they're called out for joking about abusing their wife.
Basically, it's an ignorant ad hominem. It literally has nothing to do with my point, it's just a desperate attempt to dismiss what I've said based on who I am, rather than the content of my speech. Good on you for attempting to use bigotry to dismiss my point while hypocritically complaining about bigotry. It's amazing how often I come across projections.
Because in the process of putting someone down he talked about drugging another person. I'm not the obstinate one here, I can easily see why some people might not find that funny and why it would be a joke that you really have to "know your audience" to use.
You think jokes are always things that actually happened? lol Your position is getting increasingly ridiculous.
Who said otherwise? At no point have I said nor implied that men don't abuse women. In fact, I've explicitly said the exact opposite. Although, interesting to note, you've seemingly gone out of your way to avoid admitting that men sometimes are victims too. It's becoming increasingly clear why...
And women do drug men. Why the insistence on always making one sex the victim and the other the perpetrator if you aren't bigoted yourself? You're not the only one who can ask leading questions based only loosely on what was actually said.
You keep avoiding this, because you don't want to admit it, but he outright said it which makes it clear that the implication of his joke is that his wife is too good for him. This is the exact opposite of misogyny. He isn't actually taking away her agency. He's joking that that is the only reason she would stay with him, while that's (presumably, I can't really say) clearly not the reason.
Thanks for demonstrating how one doesn't have to declare "I hate X group of people" to be bigoted against them. The reason you see bigots everywhere is probably because you are one.
Acknowledging that you're not a woman who has been abused, nor do you have experience with women who have suffered abuse, your experience talking about how women should feel about men joking about abuse isn't really all that informed is it.
You really need to re-read everything I've said as we're getting close to the point of me reiterating what I've said as you continue to seemingly miss the point.
Misogyny exists across society in a way misandry doesn't. Men aren't drugged by women across all levels of society. There does not exist a power structure of misandry. Hence our countries our led by men, our households led by men, men freely joke about committing acts of violence and abuse against us all the time. Happens all the time. Politician did it. It was wrong of him to do so. It was misogynistic.
Mhm yup you're right the nasty woman hates men. Yup. Classic. Never saw it coming. I've been doing this for a long time, you can try and spin this narrative however you fucking like lmao. Men make jokes about abusing women, and somehow it's the women's fault for getting upset. Too good honestly.
Men say whatever the fuck they want about us all the time and whenever we speak up we're told to shut the fuck up and take it. I'm not gonna do it lmao just cope with it. Don't like it move on. I don't fucking care. I'm going to call out misogyny. Every single time. You clearly don't get it and don't care, and on that note, I don't have the time or the energy to keep repeating myself to you, so I'll send this message and then block you. Have a good one.
I have been abused myself. But, then again, I'm a man and thus it doesn't count to you, apparently, and my experience should be diminished or outright dismissed.
And, what. . .does this excuse misandry? Or should we, as you said earlier, call out bigotry whenever we see it? Or do we only call it out when when we identify with the victims? Or do we ignore it when we're bigoted against the victims?
The difference between you and I is that I don't actually give a shit about your gender. I've never made your gender part of my argument. I've always addressed your points, and when you've said bigot things, I've called it out. But you on the other hand, my gender has played very prominently. You've attempted, multiple times, to use my gender as a reason to dismiss my points.
I suspect the "reason you've seen it coming" is that you are a bigot and, on some level, you know. I guess I could have thrown out, right at the beginning "Never saw a 'nasty man' making a self-deprecating joke meaning he hates women! Classic. Never saw it coming." But, nah, I would rather stick to the points actually being made. So bigoted! lol
You are what you hate. Wake up.
Never said this. Of course, that doesn't matter. You're so desperate to make this about you being a female victim and men, including me, being the bad guy that the facts no longer matter. I feel like I'm debating a Trump supporter.
No surprise, taking a final swing and then running away from a point you don't like. You could have simply stopped responding. At any point. But, nope, throw out bigotry and when called out on it, block the person. Good on you! lol
I'm not what I hate. I'm not bigoted against men. I hold no power over men. They hold power over me. Me acknowledging that abuse in society is gendered, and that you yourself are from the gender who disproportionately abuses the other in a unique way unlike anything else in society, is not bigoted. I've not said I hate men, nor have I said that there's anything wrong with you being a man. I'm sorry you've been a victim of abuse. I have been too, all by men. So have all my friends. And studies show consistently that nearly every single women will be abused in one form or another by a man in her lifetime. It's not just the acts themselves, it is the structure those acts create when pieced together, it is the power those actions reinforce and the subservience they force onto others.
You've repeatedly mischaracterized me and chosen to ignore every part of my comments that you couldn't chop up into a neat little narrative about me. I chose to separate myself from the discussion because there is nothing to be gained from talking to you. You think that it's okay to joke about abusing your wife. You think we shouldn't criticize men for joking about abusing their wives. I don't care what the punchline is, or what he was saying about himself. Saying "she's so pretty I have to daterape her to get her to stay with me" isn't funny. It's not. Just like holocaust jokes aren't funny, just like jokes about slavery, and so on. They're not funny, objectively. They're wrong.
You called me out for making my point and bailing, well this is what i have left to say and thats it. I have a job to go to in the morning, I have other things I have to do before bed, and I'm done talking to someone who thinks that those things are fine. This conversation has nothing to be gained for either of us in it. You're never going to convince me that saying that you abuse your wife, even in a jesting context, is okay. I'll never be fine with that. I'm not open to any other perspective on that. And you appear to have pretty well the same disposition towards it sometimes being okay to say that you abuse your wife, at least in a jesting context. We have nothing to gain from each other, and will always be on opposite sides with regards to the way that men (yes, men specifically) trivialize the suffering of women at their hands. All too often it takes the form of a punchline for plausible deniability.
Respond how you will, it's your right, but I'm done. I was less than patient in previous messages. Myself and many other feminists are frequently accused of hating men for acknowledging that women suffer uniquely at the hands of men, and that this dialog was always about a man joking about abusing his wife. You chose to bring up male victims of abuse in a conversation about how women felt about men joking about abusing women. That's a frequent strategy by misogynists, meant to derail discussions of women suffering at the hands of men. So I responded how I would to any other anti-feminist. I don't regret that, but in the effort to make my point I've taken my time writing this last comment.