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this post was submitted on 18 Jul 2023
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No Stupid Questions
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I don't think this works, because any sexual stuff they don't think google / Mega Corp cares about. Which is true google doesn't give a shit if you have sex without curtains, they only care if you are shopping for curtains.
And the rest of the questions only matter if you are running for office or something which again 99.9% aren't, so they don't give a shit.
I'm all for privacy, but the argument I have nothing to hide except bank account passwords etc is hard to argue with, when it comes to the average person, because the truth is that they don't matter and most likely no-one cares about their specific data.
Most data is only valuable in mass, unless you're being criminally investigated or something.
Perhaps you never heard of the psychological targeting done for political purposes through the misuse of mass data. (Cambridge Analytics)
Edit: to be clear, people in the comments have already provided many examples of situations where corporations/governing bodies have misused specific people's personal data (zoom employees watching webcams without knowledge), however I also don't think it makes sense to brush off the impact of mass data available as a result of much of the population freely giving away their personal data.
I think we're talking about an abstract concept here. The example with the sex questions is more of a metaphor/image to make you remember there is stuff out there, we'd like to keep private. It's not necessarily your main concern regarding google. Those are different things but way less graphic and more difficult to explain, so i went with this example instead.
You're close to the category of people i described last. You don't care for freedom. You don't care your attention is guided by other people. Information that is shown to you is gated by algorithms. And their power to manipulate you comes from the knowledge they have about you.
Au contraire. Companies pay big money for data. The more specific, the more valuable. The biggest companies of today, like amazon, google, twitter, meta... Their business model is to collect data about you, sell advertisements, maybe even sell the data they've collected about you. And all of that is worth billions and billions of dollars. Why do you think they let you use TikTok or YouTube or something for free and the comany still makes millions? You're right. That's the cumulative sum. Your own data maybe is only worth 15$ to some company. Maybe more to some hacker if your credit card info gets leaked, too. But it doesn't make it any better if you're not the only one who gets exploited, but you're part of an exploited majority... The TikTok algorithm, the ads etc are specifically tailored to your personality. To influence specifically your attention.
And what do you even tell the few people who actually suffer consequences? Like, i read stories about women being stalked with the help of social media. Sometimes even police officers using their computers to stalk ex partners. Their data gets collected in mass. And stored for legitimate reasons... Do you tell them: Bad luck you're being stalked by some scummy person? We the 99.9% of people don't have this specific problem?
I care a lot about freedom and my personal privacy. The data collected by apps doesn't invade my privacy, and cannot reliably be used to harm me in any way, so I don't care.
Do you care that you're on video at the bank? Same thing.
Sorry, i'm really at a loss here. I don't understand. App data is used to make you transparent. To learn something about you to sell advertisements and show them to exactly those people who are the most likely to be influenced by it. This is how targeted advertisement works.
You're right. You're not 'harmed' in the original meaning of the word. You're just being manipulated. And so are millions of other people on the internet.
It isn't used to make anything of me at all. You don't seem to understand how this data is collected, aggregated and sold.
Literally no one has a profile on me specifically. Relevant bits of data are captured and filtered and packaged and sold without any human interaction.
There is no database entry for you as a person.
I'm not being manipulated because I am neither 12 nor a Republican.
How do you think TikTok recommends videos you like? How do you think YouTube shows you videos about astronomy or diy-stuff or whatever you like and omit the videos about kajaking? How do you think amazon recommends you similar items or shows you what you bought in the last 6 months?
They all have a specific profile for you as a person. It doesn't really matter if they don't file it with your real name as a key. It may be called a number or just contain your email address. Nonetheless it get's loaded and used when you open your browser, when you log in to those services. Rest assured they know you and your behaviours well enough. They don't need to store your name along with that. And don't tell me you have 20 google accounts, clear your cookies and have all the browser extensions installed to evade all of that.
TikTok recommends me stand-up comedy and thicc goth girls because that's what I've swiped on. Every now and then MTG card reviews pop up because I think that dude is funny.
I'm not a child, so I'm capable of curating shit I watch
I'm a huge fan of TikTok and YouTube's algos because they show me shit I am interested in. Same with my targeted ads, except for the shitty mobile game ones.
Regardless, this is not a specific profile for me as a person. It's a profile for that service, on this phone, taking some info from common internet connection points.
So they must have a database entry specifically for you and be able to recognize you. Otherwise they couldn't recommend you anything after you closed the app.
No, my phone ID and random data snippets are not "me." If I have another device and sign in under a different email, I get totally different content while still being me.
Well i think you underestimate what algorithms can piece together. And i don't think it is necessary to know everything about someone. Even if you're missing half of the picture... A few key facts may be enough to manipulate someone or gently push them into a direction that is more aligned to your goals as a company (for example). Information can be linked after the fact. And - we're getting a bit philosophical here - You're kind of the sum of your parts, your history, behaviours and different interests. No single part defines you but still they're part of you and of what you are. If I can get access to some part of you like your literacy, what kind of media you consume to make up your mind. What kind of people you're going to meet on social media. I'm starting to affect a part of what is 'You' and it also affects you as an entity.
I'm glad you value privacy. I'm not exactly sure what those algorithms do. But there are cookies and there is browser fingerprinting. And it works pretty well. If you use two accounts and use the same device, they can most likely tell by your browser fingerprint and they already know they both belong to you. And even if you're using seperate devices. If you're using a residential internet connection, it's the same IP address for both devices. This is probably also evaluated, because they store that information for the advertisers, because being in close geographical proximity is important for some metrics.
Seems weird to have a passionate stance on this, then.
What do you want from me? Those algorithms are proprietary. A few select people in the world know what exactly they're doing and which data gets stored how in the databases. We can make assumptions by their behaviour. From time to time something gets leaked and we learn some details. We used to learn how the google pagerank algorithm works in university. Now google suggests me what to read and i just swallow that. And you keep making apologies and deny you can be / are being manipulated...?! or harm you 'reliably'?
I think it's a pretty huge logical stretch to assume I am manipulated because I know algorithms don't have a profile on me you can just look up. That's not how data science works at all.
A good sign you're in conspiracy theory territory is that your entire model breaks down if the algorithm designers aren't specifically supervillains.
what exactly do you think (for example) targeted advertising is? and by looking at the revenue of big tech, do you think it succeeds at that? do you know cambridge analytica and the country of great britain?
we already established they do.
Watch something like "the social dilemma". why do YOU think silicon valley hires psychologists for app design? Do you think it's ethical to try and get people addicted to your product?
I'm sure it succeeds at times. There's a lot of dumb people. However, I don't see how that's an algorithm's fault and not the dumb person's fault.
"The social dilemma" is absurd conspiracy shit lmao. C'mon man don't tell me you believed that shit. Wait til you discover "A Funny Thing Happened On The Way to the Moon"
I'm not gonna debunk the whole show (I'll link one instead) but they hire psychologists because they're pursuing engagement. I have no issue with that. Psychologists work a lot of jobs you wouldn't expect. Psychology (and Philosophy) are actually strong undergrads for people who want Finance careers too.
Debunk: https://daniellenewnham.medium.com/why-the-social-dilemma-is-wrong-17d8b2952187
And another if you can't get past the above paywall: https://www.cbc.ca/news/entertainment/netflix-social-dilemma-tech-1.5740351
Talk about being manipulated, my dude.
I'm not sure what kind of background you have. Sure that movie is complex things 'dumbed down'. It's a movie. Them framing the story to make it thrilling and whatever, doesn't automatically debunk the facts i just told. I should stop with the examples.
What's the difference between your "pursuing engagement" and my "get people addicted". Fact is they carefully design apps to make them engaging. Play a tiktok video just in the right moment to keep you scrolling. sometimes even videos you dislike to invoke feelings. invent karma to keep you invested in your account. fine tune gameification to give rewards to your brain in exactly the right moments to keep you either engaged or buy in-game currency.
You're allowed to submit to that.
And lots of the psychological tricks and methods are designed to be subtle enough to go unnoticed and not interfere.
And what about all the other arguments?
Habits and addictions are not the same thing, which is clearly discussed in the articles I linked that I am now very aware you didn't read.
Perhaps instead of asking me for arguments, read the shit I posted?
I'm sorry. I'm more interested in a debate based on facts, not accusations. You keep dropping two thirds of the argument, debunking one thing with something that's besides the point, and then calling me things that aren't true either. Have a nice day.
(Edit: Thanks for the article on the social dilemma, though. i genuinely was unaware people hold that view on that movie. it's been some time and i don't recall all of the story, maybe i didn't take things face value and thought everyone knew where they stretched the facts. i think i'm going to reconsider and stop recommending that one. I'm not saying i agree 100% to those articles, but there is some merit to this.)
"the data collected by apps..... Cannot reliably be used to harm me"
So you're saying that someone can't use your location, recordings of your audible surroundings, recordings of your devices camera view, and whom you may be interacting with cannot be used to harm you?
Correct.
but the argument I have nothing to hide except bank account passwords etc is hard to argue withIt's simple to argue against: any and all data points are either potential threat vectors, or will in aggregate paint a better picture of the individual they pertain to, for the data's possessor to use as they wish. A default-deny policy for data creation/access makes as much sense for individuals as it does workplaces.
I get it, I'm telling you why it doesn't resonate with 99% of people. Once you have to explain threat vectors people shut it down and call you a paranoid person.
Again, I don't agree with it I'm just telling you why I have nothing to hide is so pervasive.
In that case, please post your real name, tax id (SSN in the States) and annual household income.
N.B. None of this information is private.
Yea obviously not that... Like I said bank account stuff everyone gets.... Google isn't harvesting bank account numbers.
Privacy and not getting hacked is not the same thing.
My point is that most people just keep their banking safe and don't care about the rest, hence "I got nothing to hide" attitude