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Netanyahu defies Biden, insisting there’s ‘no space’ for Palestinian state
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 20 Jan 2024
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The US invasion of Afghanistan post 9/11 was a unique opportunity to establish democracy in Afghanistan. That didn't exactly work out.
There's the crux of the problem. There have been opportunities for a Palestinian state in the past. It failed because there isn't any good leadership among Palestinians. So I'm not sure how this is actually an opportunity for Palestinian statehood.
I think there's a lot of wishful thinking going on here. I wish this was a non-violent resistance movement lead by someone that believed in peace and democracy. Then a Palestinian state would be a no-brainer. But unfortunately that's just not the scenario. Palestinian leaders are corrupt and if a Palestinian state were declared it would likely be a failed state.
Afghanistan returning back to what it was before isn't as big a deal to Americans because it's not on the border of the US. A Palestinian failed state (which is basically what Gaza has been for the last decade and a half) would be on the border of Israel, within rocket range of any terrorist groups that can be supplied by Iran.
A lot of people don't know this, but they tried this in 2018. It was called the Great March of Return. Gazaans tried protesting non violently for weeks, and faced a fierce violent response, but it was largely ignored by international news.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018%E2%80%932019_Gaza_border_protests
The existence of people willing to protest peacefully doesn't make the violence of Hamas no longer exist. Especially when the peaceful protests turn a blind eye to the violence of Hamas. You can't claim it's a peaceful movement while there's a violent movement happening concurrent to it.
And are you really claiming Israel didn't have good reason to be nervous about Palestinians crossing the border into Israel after what happened on October 7? What happened on that day proved that building a fence and blockading Gaza were justified. We've seen what Hamas does when given the opportunity to enter into Israel, so why are you still upset that a peaceful movement that would have allowed Hamas to enter Israel in among them wasn't allowed to proceed? Are you really so in denial about what happened on October 7, what Hamas did, that you can't retire the talking points you're used to repeating for the last five years? Hamas proved that Israel was correct to defend it's border with force.
I'm not really sure what point you're arguing. I think you might be reading things into my observation that aren't there.
My point was that it's unfortunate that non-violence civil disobedience appears to have been found to be highly infective under the conditions within Gaza at least circa 2018-19.
I think it's weird when someone says "Oct. 7 is proof that Israel was right to ______." Because while much is up for debate, I think the one thing we can agree is that Oct. 7 showed the overall security arrangement was a failure.
One can argue for any security strategy they like, but I don't think anyone should point to Oct. 7 to justify any policy that led up to Oct. 7.
Exactly how Netanyahu wants it. He and his Israeli government were instrumental in the growth of Hamas and the failure of more moderate Palestinian leadership.
This isn't even some wack conspiracy theory. It's his own words.
The west bank is a good example of non-violent resistance. Last news the killed afew people in a village who were sheep herders.
Israel history have a long list of massacres of peaceful people, pretending that Israel having a moment of far right crazy people is just misleading. It is like saying Nazism was caused by Hitler and not the people who supported him and still support him and believes in Nazi agendas.
Israel want to control the great kingdom of Israel. Evangelical want Israel to establish the great kingdom of Israel. Alot of wealthy Zainoist want the great kingdom of Israel.
Pretending this is not the case make people believe in false hope like two states solutions.
The previous attempts also failed because the offer of Palestinian statehood was not actually sovereign statehood. Israel continually insists that they alone will be in charge of security matters for a Palestinian state.
How many countries have been chomping at the bit to be in charge of security in Gaza?
If the US going to be putting boots on the ground in Gaza? Is anyone?
I'm talking about the long term and not just of Gaza but of an independent Palestinian state. Ultimately the Palestinian people will have to be in charge of the security of that state. Otherwise it is not a sovereign state but dependent on the whims of the Israeli government.
Yes, long term I want a Palestinian state, peace and harmony for all humankind, disbanding all militaries, destruction of all nuclear weapons and we can all hold hands and sing "Imagine all the people..."
But the question is, how do we get there from here?
How so? There was Yasser Arafat until 2004.
We had that and it failed. The result is the West Bank.
Are you actually claiming Arafat was "good leadership"?
Ok for you and others learning about this from Wikipedia, Arafat siphoned off a lot of aid money. Much of it went to his own personal bank account, with a large chunk going towards buying weapons to use against Israel. He never wanted peace, he was just playing everyone for money.
Then what were the Oslo accords? What about Camp David (which, contrary to popular knowledge, he did try to make work)? Dismissing everything Arafat did and claiming he "never wanted peace" is very disingenuous. Also what was the PLO doing with weapons post 1993 when they denounced violence?
Also making it sound like poor Israel tried so hard to get Palestinians a state but because they didn't have leadership it didn't work out makes me question how much you're committed to faithful discussion of the topic.
They publicly denounced violence while secretly arming for the next round of violence.
See sometimes people lie. If all you know about the situation is based solely on official statements, then you aren't really even trying to understand what's going on.
Negotiating with Palestinian leaders was pointless because there was no leadership that could but trusted to honor a deal. So Ariel Sharon tried removing all settlements and ending the occupation of a part of a Palestine as a show of goodwill to the Palestinian people. Guess which part of Palestine that was?
After the occupation of Gaza ended, Palestinians voted for Hamas. I suppose thy felt like they were winning and should fight harder? I don't know, but after the last occupation of Gaza ended the Palestinian people chose violence, not peace.
See Palestinians had Gaza, free of occupation, a place with access to the ocean and therefore access to trade. There was a lot of optimism for the future then. Gaza has nice beaches and could be a tourist destination. They could trade and develop industries separate from Israel. The could be prosperity there and when people are prosperous they generally don't want violence over some land that a history book says they should have.
But then they voted for Hamas.
A lot of people felt disappointed by that. The Palestinian people broke our hearts.
But some people just pretended it didn't happen. Couldn't accept that Palestine went fascist. Made excuses. Pretended it wasn't that bad. Pretended that Hamas wasn't building rockets to fire rockets at Israel so a blockade was outrageous. Pretended the rockets fired at Israel didn't exist. Pretended that Hamas wouldn't try to send gunmen across the border if Israel allowed protesters to cross. Pretended October 7 didn't happen, and if it did it was somehow justified. When called out for these statements they pretend they didn't mean it.
And this is why there's no good leadership for Palestine. Too much pretending, too much looking the other way. No one ever wants to hold Palestinian leadership accountable because hatred of Israel allows for the rationalization of lies, corruption, and even the genocide committed on October 7. People are desperately trying to "both sides" actual genocide by claiming that a war started by the genocide committed by Hamas is also genocide. Whatever rationalization needed to try to keep Hamas in power because admitting that Hamas needs to be destroyed would be admitting that there's something seriously wrong with Palestinian leadership.
Palestine will never have good leadership so long as the leadership is never held accountable. By constantly making excuses, it's just perpetuating the status quo. Oh well, maybe the next generation of Palestinians will understand it's no benefit to them to have leaders that either billionaires living in Qatar or at the very least hiding underground while leaving them to the mercy of the people they're been indoctrinated into believing are genocidal monsters. Who's the real monsters in all of this?
I was gonna say cry me a river, but unfortunately people like you can vote, so I'll just lose faith in humanity in silence.
This "failed state" Palestine would be the most free they have been in the better part of a century. Having a right of return, protections from illegal settlers, representation in the UN etc. The last free election in Gaza was also a narrow win for Hamas, and stability of statehood would be quite deradicalizing
Hell, even just control over their own electric, water, and internet access would be a game changer for Gaza.
Right of return is dead. Hamas killed it.
Israelis aren't just going to allow Palestinians to come into Israel whenever they please after October 7. What are you smoking?
Sure maybe after a generation or two, if Palestinians can stop hating Israelis. But by then there will be no Palestinian old enough to have ever lived in Israel.
Are you making unrealistic demands knowing they aren't feasible because you want this conflict to go on forever?
Palestinians won't be de-radicalized until people the world over stop egging them on with their blood and soil justifications. A Palestinian state will only be possible a generation after the last person says "From the River to the Sea" and they give up on their fascist ideas of restoring the ethnic makeup of geographic areas to the way they were in a history book.
Some of the things Palestinians want could have been valid at a negotiating table. But when you choose violence the only thing that matters is which side has more capability of executing violence. And after you choose violence and lose, you aren't going to get as much at a negotiating table as you would have had you not chosen violence. You can't have people getting everything they want after using violence because it would be non-stop war and terrorism everywhere in the world.
So yeah, forget about right of return. 30 years ago that may have been possible, but Palestinians chose Hamas over right of return.
Jesus fucking christ, how do you think you have the moral high-ground when in the process of exhibiting your smug, superiority complex you are criticizing the Palestinians for trying to do the exact fucking thing that the Israeli's already did. Don't answer that because I know whatever you are going to say is going to be precisely the kind of sick, demented justification that has allowed this conflict to continue for as long as it has in the first place.
This has to be the most myopic statement I have ever read.
Nevermind
probably because the good up-and-coming leaders either got shot by IDF or recruited by Hamas, since there's not much job prospects inside Palestine and Hamas smuggles supplies in
Palestinians put Hamas in power. Therefore it was the responsibility of Palestinians to remove them from power.
They didn't do that, so now the IDF has to do it. But now we want a ceasefire before the job is done because we want to keep Hamas in power?
What choice do you think Palestinians have when Hamas smuggles weapons in.
What do Palestinians use to go against Hamas? Harsh words?
Yes.
Palestinians could denounce Hamas. When Hamas calls for protest, don't go to those ones, only go to the ones that are called for by groups that denounce Hamas. Refrain from cosplaying as Hamas terrorists when attending protests. Refrain from using genocidal dog whistles like "from the river to the sea". Refrain from shooting at synagogues. Protest at Israeli consulates not in Jewish communities. Refrain from trying to burn down Jewish businesses.
Ya' know, they could do something anything at all to at least try to ostracize Hamas from their movement. Like anything? Like something to indicate that Hamas isn't the driving force of their movement? Like throw me a fucking bone here, I want to some day not be disappointed by the actions of Palestinians. Because all I'm seeing is hatred and the belief that their hatred is justified and their hatred makes any horrific act they do is permissible. The only explanation I have for the behavior I'm seeing is that Palestine is a fascist society. It's the only thing that fits. I've yet to hear anything from anyone Pro-Palestine that didn't sound like it came out out the Goebbels playbook. Constantly pounding the victimization narrative, blood and soil (from the river to the sea!) narrative, the antisemitic narrative, the historical humiliation narrative. The constant violent fervor, Is there anything else going on?
What is the Palestinian plan to achieve statehood? Fire rockets at Israel and spew propaganda on the internet? Then continue with the victimization, humilation, blood and soil rhetoric when Israel responds to their attacks and the continue losing (while their billionaire leaders live large in Qatar) until they have nothing left?
Hatred is a funny thing, it can make people feel strong while it destroys them.
And people back then (me included) tried to get through to the Seppos that that's exactly what's going to happen. They said stuff like "It's going to be just like Germany", ignoring the social conditions that made, and still makes, Afghanistan quite distinct from Germany.
...just as you're doing right now: Palestine is not Afghanistan. If you subtract the conflict from all the polling numbers they're actually quite a bit more sensible than Floridians.
Sure it's different, but how does a lack of leadership and a willingness for countries like Iran to fund terrorist groups there make it likely to succeed as an independent state?
Seems like a lot of wishful thinking going on.
It's not about leadership it's about civil society. Palestine actually has one, Afghanistan doesn't, Palestine has home-grown secular democrats, Afghanistan very much didn't.
I'm willing to at least consider a genocide of Florida.