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this post was submitted on 26 Jan 2024
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How many times do I need to tell you that I'm specifically saying that religion CAN exist? It CAN! I've never said nor implied that it's impossible, and I'm not saying we should believe it's impossible! I'm saying that it's just as bad to believe it's specifically real as it is to believe it's specifically fake when we can't measure it. To believe in religion is just as wrong as to believe in a lack of religion. We cannot know, so to believe anything about it is nothing more than an opinion and not a measurable fact. It's fine to have an opinion, but to think about something scientifically is to remove any preconceived notions about whatever you're studying and focus solely on what you can measure; since you can't measure religion, you can't think about it scientifically, which makes it the antithesis to science.
Yes, some things that are immeasurable end up being true - of course they do, but until they become measurable, they should not be assumed to be anything. If God shows up and we measure him, then he can be thought about scientifically, but until that point he can't, and he shouldn't be. Until we have something to measure, we should not assume any baseless ideas about its existence or lack thereof are true.
You say the logical mind has trouble saying "It might or it might not, for now we can't say" but that has been my entire point this entire time! To be religious is to say "Yes, it does exist," and to be atheist is to say "No, it does not exist," both of which are wrong. The scientific way to think about religion is to specifically not make any decision one way or another, so when a scientist says they're religious, that shows they've made a decision, which shows they've allowed unscientific biases to enter their daily life. Now, we're all human, and we all have biases, but when we start making scientific presentations centered around our biases, as this man did, it's incredibly problematic. Science and religion started out hand in hand, and most of our progress over the years has been due to our slow separation of the two.
That would apply if the scientists believing in their religion would claim to do so scientifically.
You're again saying that a scientific can't use faith in a case where he can't know, or it means that he will do so for the entirety of his work, but we both know that's not necessarily true. Because they choose to rely on opinion on this subject, does not necessarily mean that they do the same with their work ethic. (That would also mean doubting the work of a crushing majority of scientists, them being religious or atheist in most cases, unless agnosticism is much more widespread that last time I brushed the subject)
In essential, what I'm saying is because a scientist claims to be religious or atheist, thinking that their whole work should be doubted because of that, is a flawed argument.
PS : And because we can't measure it, and don't know if it's "can't measure yet" or "can't measure ever", we can't say that religion is the antithesis of science. Which means we can think about it scientifically, we just don't have the means to know if it's correct.
You're really desperate to find an argument I'm not making. Again, people can be religious. Scientists can be religious. However, if a scientist is religious they need to make very sure that their religion - that they believe in spite of no data, and is thus nothing more than an opinion - does not affect their science, which is required to be based on measurable data alone.
What this man did was make a scientific presentation based on his beliefs - his opinions - which were not based on measurements, and were thus unscientific. That was what crossed the line. I will always be wary of a religious scientist because I cannot determine whether their measurements are unaffected by the biases their religion gives them, but I can never truly dismiss their measurements, because I cannot be sure they are not illegitimate. But when someone openly announces that they believe sin has caused a god to directly influence human genetics, and their claim is not based on any collected data, it shows that they absolutely have allowed their biases to affect the legitimacy of their work. In that instance, any past or present data that that person has collected will need to be re-measured by someone who has not shown to have allowed their biases to influence their work.
Something immeasurable is the antithesis to science, which is the act of measuring. If that thing later becomes measurable, it stops being the antithesis to science, because that immeasurability is no longer present. Insofar that we cannot know whether or not religion exists, it will continue to be something immeasurable, and will be antithetical to science. If someone wants to support both, they need to make absolutely sure that they are entirely compartmentalized, so that if the day comes that religion is either confirmed or denounced, it will not affect their work.
Ok, so considering that my original point, to which you answered, was that you don't need to compartmentalize to be able to experiment science and religion at the same time, what is your point ?
My point is that religious scientists are required to walk a very fine line to do both, because every interaction a human has with the world is a form of measurement.
Looking at a blue sky is a measurement, watching a child grow up is a measurement, smelling a flower is a measurement; these things are science, and for a religious scientist to be unbiased, they cannot allow any question of why or how they exist to be answered with "God." So, the question becomes: "What's left for a religious scientist to truly believe in, and not measure?" and the answer is that only the immeasurable can be left up to faith - the idea of an afterlife, the idea of a creator who kicked off the phenomenon of "reality" itself, and other such immeasurable things can be left up to faith, but nothing else.
Anything that can be answered by looking closer at existence itself cannot - in any way - be answered scientifically with anything other than real data. What this man did was show that he had allowed the measurable to be defined by the immeasurable in his work, and thus lost his legitimacy as a scientist.
Oh, I agree for the scientist in OP, dude lost his marbles or is coping hard on his cognitive dissonance, but my point was answering to the much simpler subject of "Scientists can't be religious or they're not proper scientists".
As to the very fine line religious scientists must walk, if we're honest, it's true of many things that make the life of a scientist, because it is measurable and can be approached scientifically, doesn't mean they will approach and measure it that way, humans are fallible, and they often do fail, but that's another subject.
You're absolutely right - ultimately, true scientific method is impossible for humans, since we all have biases, but striving for perfection is how we get as close as we can to it.
As you mentioned, scientific progress can be made even with biased data from people who have let religion and science intermingle, but as others have shown in this thread, it often leads to a slow process of chipping away at society's default answer of "God did it" little by little over time, which has significantly delayed scientific progress.
Even just 100 years ago this man likely wouldn't have lost his job for making a claim without data that sin has directly impacted human health, and I see the fact that it's now an unacceptable claim to be an indication that science as a whole is becoming less biased, in part due to its further separation from religion.
I do agree that they aren't many, the ones who are actually careful about not mixing up their beliefs with science, sadly.
I see we do agree in the end, it was an interesting talk, thank you for that.
I do wonder if science really would have been quicker without religion tho. (Putting apart the time science treated religion as being heretic of course. I mean this in the "wouldn't human find something else to be biased about/get their meaning lost in anyway" way)
It's possible that something else would've gotten in the way if religion hadn't, but I guess we can leave that immeasurable thing up to faith as well. I'm glad we came to an agreement in the end.