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Important distinction
(lemmy.world)
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this post was submitted on 31 Jan 2024
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Guess the name of this Darwinist extremist! (hint: he was fundamental in establishing Holocaust Remembrance Day on January 27th)
"In the struggle for daily bread all those who are weak and sickly or less determined succumb, while the struggle of the males for the female grants the right or opportunity to propagate only to the healthiest. And struggle is always a means for improving a species' health and power of resistance and, therefore, a cause of its higher evolution."
I'm sure many of you will find a clever way to justify his murder of eleven million Jews and other "weak" people, and dragging half of the world into the deadliest conflict of all time, all because of his extreme application of Darwinian evolution theory.
Yes. It's Adolf Hitler.
You are so full of shit.
Nothing about Hitler (I assume you smugly meant him) was following Darwins teachings.
On the other hand he off course was a lifelong catholic...
The above quote is lifted from Mein Kampf, Hitler's infamous manifesto. The Nazi party referred to Darwin by name. Please read a history book.
Of course, the Americans also indulged in the fucked up practice of eugenics, inspired by Darwinism.
Darwin's cousin, Francis Galton, was the guy who started the scientific discipline of eugenics.
Darwin is well known to be a pretty shit person and inspired a lot of justifications for racism but that doesn't discredit the theory of evolution.
He may have proposed the idea first but the mountains of evidence supporting evolution came long after him.
Completely discrediting him because he was a shit human being would be like saying a particular mathematical theory is incorrect because the person who proposed it 100 years ago was a pedophile. His personal convictions are irrelevant at this stage and how his theory was used to justify genocide is similarly irrelevant
I'm not critiquing the theory of evolution. There are plenty of scientists doing that already.
The discussion is about whether extremism is unique to religion. I'm arguing that dangerous extremism can be justified in a variety of ways, even via Darwinism. It's human nature.
I think that this thread highlights our tendency towards selective bias.
What now?
I don't think anyone but you believes this thread is about wether extremism is unique to religion.
Obviously there are other forms of dangerous extremism.
Nazis were pretty fucking extremist.
Now they were not (at least not primarily) extremist Darwinists off course, but extremist racists and antisemites (among other things).
But the meme makes the insecure loser guy say "We should be fighting religion".
And what I think this thread truly highlights is, that a majority in it doesn't see it as a loser thing to fight religion.
Ffs fighting racists and fascists is way more important than fighting religion at this specific point in history.
Still religion is also a cancer that should be fought in my opinion, and seemingly in others as well.
Perhaps you didn't see my other comment so I'll copy it here. Yes, the Nazis were explicitly motivated by Darwinism.
You appear to be a German (judging by your handle). It should be pretty easy for you to confirm the history.
Not just Hitler, the whole of the Nazi party and their public propaganda was based on extreme Darwinism.
An important official Nazi Party publication, Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte, edited by Alfred Rosenberg, occasionally featured articles promoting evolution. In a 1935 article Heinz Brücher praised German biologist Ernst Haeckel for paving the way for the Nazi regime. In addition to mentioning Haeckel's advocacy of eugenics and euthanasia, Brücher highlighted Haeckel's role in promoting human evolution. Brücher reminded his readers that Haeckel's view of human evolution led him to reject human equality and socialism. In 1941 Brücher published another article in Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte on evolution through natural selection. Several times he stressed that the principles of evolution were just as valid for humans as for other organisms. He closed the essay by explaining the practical application of evolutionary theory:
The hereditary health of the German Volk and of the Nordic-Germanic race that unites it must under all circumstances remain intact. Through an appropriate compliance with the laws of nature, through selection and planned racial care it can even be increased. The racial superiority achieved thereby secures for our Volk in the harsh struggle for existence an advantage, which will make us unconquerable.
In Brücher's view human evolution is an essential ingredient of racial ideology, not a hindrance to it. In 1936 Heberer launched an attack on antievolutionists in Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte. He praised Haeckel and stressed the affinities of Darwinism and human evolution with Nazi ideology.
The history is really quite fascinating and it's rarely taught in your state-mandated evolutionary biology classes!
Oh yeah for sure, fascism is not specifically a religious thing, reactionary ideology can easily form without religion, it's just unfortunate that religion offers a great justification for exclusionary rhetoric and persecution. Religion can exist without fascism and fascism can exist without religion, but they tend to get along.
I'm not talking about Fascism. There were several European countries that adopted Fascism with mixed results.
Only the Nazi party murdered eleven million Jews and several million other "weaker races". They explicitly referred to Darwinism as their justification.
What a weird way to favor religion
I didn't mention religion at all. I'm supporting OP's statement by demonstrating that all humans and all ideologies are capable of extremism.
You didn't demonstrate that "all humans and all ideologies are capable of extremism." You demonstrated that Nazis are extremists. Do you honestly not see the difference or are you simply muddying the waters so you can argue in bad faith?
I'm actually claiming that Darwinism is extremist and that it is implicated by name in the murder of tens of millions of people.
FWIW, in my experience as a scientist and science educator, "Darwinism" isn't a real term used by anyone besides religious nut jobs looking to create a straw man. Just so you know.
Scientific advances are not extremist. People who understand the scientific method and make use of scientific advances are not extremists. People who use scientific advances to commit atrocities are extremists.
Edit: and you still didn't demonstrate that "all humans and all ideologies are capable of extremism."
What's wrong with using the term Darwinism? I think it's a good umbrella category to include the varieties of evolution theory such Lamarckism, neo-darwinian evolution, modern evolutionary synthesis and extended evolutionary synthesis. What term do the people who aren't "nut jobs" use?
I've made some pretty decent claims about the universality of extremism. I'd love for you to point me to a community of humans who haven't done something extreme.
Evolution. If we're feeling pedantic or spicy, "the theory of evolution."
And you still didn't address the fact that understanding and believing in a scientific advance does not make one an extremist. It doesn't place you in the same ideological group as people who use that scientific advance for a crime. People who believe the theory of gravity are not "gravitationalists" or "Newtonians." Moreover, if I use gravity to commit a crime, that doesn't implicate everyone else who believes that gravity exists. I understand how nuclear reactions work; does that make me a "nuclearist" and therefore complicit in the bombing of Hiroshima?
Secular humanists. There are a number of others I could cite if I felt like pushing your buttons, but I'll stick with the single option so you don't get distracted.
Therefore adherents of a religion are also not implicit in extremism, right? Pretty sure that's the original point of the meme...
It seems that we're mostly in agreement that it's the broad category of humans who are culpable. Whether secular or sectarian, humans continuously harm others, intentionally or not.
That's literally laughable. Religion is a conscious choice to believe in something for which there is no evidence (which is colloquially known as "faith"). Allowing evidence to provide an understanding of how the natural world works is not the same as choosing to be a part of a community that is not based on reality.
Correct. However, we differ in our definition of extremism, which I define as intolerance of others, willful ignorance of the natural world, and desire to restrict the rights of others based on their interpretation of Bronze Age manuscripts.
It is laughable, especially coming from someone making homage to Neils Bohr. Did he not choose to lend assistance to the building of the bomb? Of course he advocated for peace after the fact...
I believe that all people should be held accountable for their actions, regardless of their beliefs. You probably believe that nuclear science justifies the nuclear proliferation. I don't.
I define extremism as violence upon others. Both secularists and religionists are capable and culpable.
At 20 comments on this post, maybe that’s enough thread-sitting, @Haagel@lemmings.world.
What is "thread-sitting"?
Perhaps not a well-known term, which I believe originated at MetaFilter: http://faq.metafilter.com/221/threadshitting-and-threadsitting
OK. Point taken. 👍🏼
Not just Hitler, the whole of the Nazi party and their public propaganda was based on extreme Darwinism.
An important official Nazi Party publication, Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte, edited by Alfred Rosenberg, occasionally featured articles promoting evolution. In a 1935 article Heinz Brücher praised German biologist Ernst Haeckel for paving the way for the Nazi regime. In addition to mentioning Haeckel's advocacy of eugenics and euthanasia, Brücher highlighted Haeckel's role in promoting human evolution. Brücher reminded his readers that Haeckel's view of human evolution led him to reject human equality and socialism. In 1941 Brücher published another article in Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte on evolution through natural selection. Several times he stressed that the principles of evolution were just as valid for humans as for other orgarisms. He closed the essay by explaining the practical application of evolutionary theory:
The hereditary health of the German Volk and of the Nordic-Germanic race that unites it must under all circumstances remain intact. Through an appropriate complianmce with the laws of nature, through selection and planned racial care it can even be increased. The racial superiority achieved thereby secures for our Volk in the harsh struggle for existence an advantage, which will make us unconquerable.
In Brücher's view human evolution is an essential ingredient of racial ideology, not a hindrance to it. In 1936 Heberer launched an attack on antievolutionists in Nationalsozialistische Monatshefte. He praised Haeckel and stressed the affinities of Darwinism and human evolution with Nazi ideology.
The history is really quite fascinating and it's rarely taught in your state-mandated evolutionary biology classes!