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submitted 9 months ago by RothyBuyak@lemmy.blahaj.zone to c/196@lemmy.blahaj.zone

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[-] scoobford@lemmy.zip 4 points 9 months ago

Whoever is making the decisions about distribution and factory management is effectively a state at that point.

There's also the fact that generally, people want to live in developed nations. You'll need a military to keep your neighboring countries from taking all your stuff/people/land, and you'll need some kind of police force to keep those few assholes you have internally from just kidnapping people or stealing everything that isn't nailed down whatever.

[-] LinkOpensChest_wav@lemmy.dbzer0.com 5 points 9 months ago

Whoever is making the decisions about distribution and factory management is effectively a state at that point

This is objectively false. You can do all these things and not have a state. See: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/peter-gelderloos-anarchy-works

You'll need a military to keep your neighboring countries from taking all your stuff/people/land, and you'll need some kind of police force to keep those few assholes you have internally from just kidnapping people or stealing everything that isn't nailed down whatever

As you have pointed out here, the state will always be the enemy of progress, will stand in the way of and disrupt every attempt at creating a more equitable society (which must exist apart from a state, since a state will always trend toward fascism, without exception).

For this reason, most anarchists start practicing our ideals immediately and do not await a revolution. We try to educate people and inform them. We work imperfectly within desperately broken and inequitable systems to introduce more equity and justice.

Want to see an example of this in action? Look up the Zapatistas.

[-] HardNut@lemmy.world 1 points 9 months ago

You're just not calling it a state.

I love how that was the one moment you weren't willing to expand your explanation and just left a link. Did you notice yourself accidentally describing a state and decided to not leave the opening?

Whatever diplomatic routine you pull that results in the organization that communists are striving for: that's the state. An external force with a plan about how people organize. You can call it whatever form of state you want, you can call it a commune, a collective, but whatever method the people use to organize themselves that way is that state.

Think it through: how are decisions made, do we cast a vote? Well contracts, you have a democratic state. Do we use diplomacy? Congrats, you have a diplomatic state. Okay so what if we just want some rules for who does what and we don't make people make those decisions, congrats you have a constitutional state. Uh oh people aren't following rules, looks like we need to hire people to enforce those rules... Ever wonder why every communist system ever had an overabundance of police?

The link you posted is completely untrustworthy by the way. I mean, look at this:

If anything, getting paid to do something makes it less enjoyable

Any health brain in the world would throw up alarm bells at this. A classic sophist technique, to prime the conclusions by peppering little lies that make it more palatable. Every study ever performed on paid/unpaid labor has this solved, don't start pretending it's true now.

Here's a hint: unpaid labor is called what exactly? Using unpaid labor to get things done, what's that called?

Plus, look at how this comment chain started. The original replier made the point that communism fascism and socialism all need a state to exist. Your source, when arguing that you don't need bosses or state control mentioned a case where 500,000 workers over through a factory and controlled it democratically. He suspiciously doesn't mention how long it lasted, only that it happened post WW1. He also doesn't mention that that's immediately before the fascist takeover of Italy, in which Mussolini cooperated with many of these violent revolutionaries called syndicates, and they were unproductive without right control.

I hold the same sentiment as you in regards to the state, I have a natural distrust towards it I suppose. However, I do not agree that this is at all compatible with an ideology that necessitates maximal cooperation. It's not any wonder to me at all that the regimes who felt most passionately about how people should cooperate and live together end up the most oppressive