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this post was submitted on 10 Feb 2024
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politics
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The American political system has done nothing but ratchet to the right for about a hundred years.
It's so far right that people think liberals are left wing. That shit is center right lmao
That was my thought when they said X identified as conservative, Y liberal, the rest moderate or unsure.
How about none of the above since they're all right of center?
Are you guys referring to the labels as applied to the Democratic party, or the people who self-identify as one or the other?
Because while I think it's generally fair that the Democratic party is center-right (largely absorbing any half-relevant positions Republicans once had), self-identifying liberals especially of youth and women probably are leftist despite colloquially referring to liberal. In that respect I'd imagine most of these people are effectively Social Democrats by European standards; meaning a mixed bag of regulated markets combined with a strong national government and select nationalized industries (eg, medical insurance). Basically the Nordic Model.
Social democrats and market socialists. The issue is that Lemmy loves to insist on the idea that liberalism and leftism are not compatible, which is an outdated, reductive idea.
Liberalism is just the idea that individual liberty is critical to democratic agency. Myself, and basically every other contemporary leftist of consequence, would argue that democratic agency is also critical to socialism as well.
The only place where this is a controversial take are internet forums where "leftism" means "violent revolutionary fan service" and the participants are, in turn, educated entirely within this framework which exists basically nowhere in the academic mainstream.
Well to the previous commenter's point, that may just be the result of two people using different definitions of the terms.
Plenty of people do consider their "liberal" beliefs to be incompatible with "leftist" beliefs as evidenced by how many called anybody to the left of Biden as "too radical" during the 2020 primaries. We can debate about the terms but at the end of the day those people have made it clear they openly acknowledge fighting anything to the left of whatever Biden is.
There's a world of difference between "saying something is not viable" and "fighting against something".
You voted against our interests. You and I are not on the same side.
I mean, in the sense that you're on the side of the Russians, that's correct
Buddy if the only choice I have in this country is to support Russians or a strike blocking, genocide supporting piece of shit then our democracy has already failed.
Also, your choices are:
A. Support a strike blocking, genocide supporting piece of shit, or
B. Support the Russians AND support a strike blocking, genocide supporting piece of shit.
Your perfect candidate is not running, if they even exist.
That's not a democracy buddy. Like if not voting for Biden is a vote for Russia then you're only a very reasonable step away from saying "And a vote for Russia is a crime". Game over man.
There were plenty of great options in the 2020 primaries. Piece of shit Boomers rejected all of those.
But like...it literally is a crime.
Do you want to vote for Russia?
Ah fuck you're just another tankie troll aren't you.
If you're against democracy then we're also not on the same side.
I'm not. You are.
So liberal in exactly the same sense American democrats are.. People not liking that "liberal" is a negative in any circle left of those who consider themsleves that, doesn't change what it means..
https://medium.com/the-simulacrum/the-nordic-model-is-not-a-socialist-model-it-is-capitalist-bbe828d17a8a
https://truthout.org/articles/fascism-is-possible-not-in-spite-of-liberal-capitalism-but-because-of-it/
No, not necessarily. Social Democracy is one-step further left on the spectrum when considering a balance between Free Markets versus total nationalization and closed markets within the purview of a functioning Democracy. In essence, a truly mixed economy with a strong welfare foundation and regulator control rods for the markets. For all intents, the progressive-left of the Democratic party are Social Democrats while the mainline "corporate dems" are ostensibly Liberals.
Tankies dreams' aside, markets & trade aren't going away anytime soon.
That's a lot of words to say you don't understand what liberalism is.. No mount of "strong welfare" counteracts support of capitalism and the oppression and inevitable fascism that comes with it. Because yes, necessarily.
The fact that you think me saying all of this makes me a tankie is a perfect demonstration of your lack of understanding of these terms and ideas (and/or of your unwillingness to challenge your bias and think outside of the parameters capitalism has set for you).
Cool.
Classical Liberals and especially Neoliberals (what the Democratic party is) are solidly against nationalized industries and while liberalism is ok with either laissez-faire or regulated markets, neoliberalism is strictly anti-regulation.
Socially democratic nations (Nordic nations being the most consistently socially Democratic) have nationalized industries (Norway has its energy, transportation, finance, and communications all nationalized).
Probably the closest the US has ever been to social democracy was when social security and the new deal were enacted. The Democratic party has never been majority Socially Liberal to my knowledge, which is one step right from Socially Democratic, which is yet another step right from Democratically Socialist.
I mean that's what I am, the problem is whenever I use the word social Democrat as an American people have no idea what I'm talking about so I just call myself a Christian socialist instead. After all that's just a more muscular version of social democracy.
How many environmental regulations were there in 1924? How many black people could vote? Child labor laws? Could you vote in primaries, or did party bosses in literal smoke filled rooms choose a candidate? Could states shut down newspapers and ban non-Christians from holding office?
If we go back about ten more years, women can't vote, and Senators are still chosen by state legislators rather than a popular vote.
Why are leftists so quick to forget their successes?
For real; that comment was either made by a child, or someone severely ignorant of history
This is a pet peeve of mine: the term “liberal” has gone through a semantic shift in the US. It used to mean “generally left leaning”. I think maybe the word “progressive” has taken on this role now.
I think the confusion comes from the fact that many European languages always used the cognates of “liberal” to mean “free market”, I.e. “economically conservative”. This is also how the term is used in some academic fields, like economics. But this is precisely the opposite of the other meaning!
It’s pretty clear the article is using the first meaning. They even use “leaning left” interchangeably with “liberal”.
My theory is that since Americans have been interacting with Europeans more online since the 2000s, the terms have become conflated.
To not spam same text I will link it