this post was submitted on 11 Feb 2024
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I think I might make this my fucking profile picture, I am so sick and tired of this.
The other day I finally got myself to join the discord of a small early access game to give some feedback/ideas I thought would fit the game really well.
I posted in the right ideas subchannel but then I also made the mistake of saying in the general “hey what do y’all think about this idea!”. I didn’t spam it, I spent awhile writing my idea out in a clear and concise fashion to post in the idea channel, tried to make it lighthearted and even made a bad photoshopped image to go along with it, and then I mentioned it ONCE in the general chat.
The only two people who responded either in the idea channel or in general were two people in general that immediately jumped down my throat, saying I was begging or advertising (by saying I wanted a feature in the wrong place once?)… and everybody else was just silent like that is a sane way to great people at the door to a community.
I hate discord so much, what an awful place to try to organize anything. Either there are only a couple of firehose channels where interesting conversations are diluted into inscrutability by low effort jokes and meme posts or someone taking up half the chat window to say something only to one person… or there develops an ever increasing suffocation of hyper over-organized channels where the only conversations allowed proceed along strict boundaries for what is considered “on topic” for that channel (and thus the possibility space of conversations becomes a series of tiny islands, unconnected from anywhere else conceptually).
This last point might seem like an oddly specific pet peeve, but I have noticed over and over again that the kinds of people who enjoy setting up discord communities and creating an extremely organized system of subchannels just don't understand how the way that feels good for them to structure the world actually critically fails to capture the organic, living aspects of it. In my opinion one of the major reasons people enjoy microblogging services like twitter so much is a structural resistance to "discord channel organizer brain" kinds of people taking hold of communities and making them into their personal pet organization project that makes them feel good at the end of the day when "everything" can now have a perfect spot. Human conversations and interactions derive their genius from being messy and stepping over boundaries, if you make it so every type of conversation has one precise corresponding spot in some mess of subchannels it is very difficult for it not to mortally wound the living fiber of conversation. The problem with Discord, is again, you HAVE to do this when you get any more than 15 people in a Discord channel or the whole thing becomes unmanageable.
It just doesn’t work for a software project ANYWHERE along the continuum of a handful of firehose channels to a confusing web of subchannels and I hate it. Either way, the search is utterly useless in terms of helping curate a body of expert conversations (like say a Reddit-like or forum) but that won’t stop people hanging out in discord all day yelling at you for asking a question that has already been asked before…. in a chat room…. where the whole point is conversations repeat as different social groups join and leave…?
Did I mention I hate discord?
I think discord works for up to perhaps a dozen people. Big servers are pointless to engage with, they flow too quickly to be useful.
I would rephrase this to: the people who designed discord and the stupendous amounts of investor money facilitating such a huge rise in discord adoption (keeping subscription prices relatively low, not going aggressively for monetization out the bat) don't really give a shit if discord doesn't really work for groups of more than a dozen people, nor how healthy for users it is (especially minorities of them). They care about how many people are using discord, that is all.
It isn't a great place for ughh ...somedays what seems like 95% of the hobbies I love centralizing there communities on.
Obviously discord type communities have their place (I don't like discord, but fine, I am a grumpy piece of shit) but what concerns me is how much energy is being put into this powerslide of community after community moving over to discord (or more usually, new communities just forming on discord and never going anywhere else). It feels like a distortion, like the hype is a misconception about discord being the best future for every facet of digital community structures (owned by one company, based in the US...) rather than an awesome new spin on IRC, voicechat and lite community organization all rolled up in a package that made it a fresh alternative to all those federated lemmy and kbin instances (that all had years and years of open threads you could search through and read like a normal ass website)....
I feel discord does really well because the way it structures it "servers" really focuses around individuals rather than groups. Which then creates an incentive for a certain type of person to "grow their server" bringing more activity onto discord. This is confounded by both a) you join all channels on a server, 2) the ability of individuals to "mute" servers or channels; combined it means it fills up with a bunch of idlers in a way which is worse than IRC as it's unlikely they will ever read the contents or participate beyond asking a question then leaving.
Right, and this isn't just a minor issue, it is fundamental to Discord and it has serious consequences.
Somewhat astonishingly microblogs like Mastodon or Twitter are generally a more successful place for expert conversations to happen than Discord communities. Think about the amount of Twitter threads written by someone who is an expert in a topic speaking candidly that have been shared with you before whether it was in the context of social justice, your favorite hobby or science. This is because the way conversations sort themselves on Twitter isn't through rigid subchannel structures maintained by topic gatekeepers, conversations are instead "kept on topic" by users having profile descriptions that describe what on topic is for them both in subject matter and tone. Users can then choose to follow or not based upon profile descriptions and previous posts. This provides the necessary "fuzziness" to topic and community boundaries that is required for novel, expert, interesting conversations to happen (though of course microblogs have plenty of drawbacks).
One could easily say that "well, the point of Discord isn't to do serious stuff like that" but Twitter never set out to be a good place for expert, technical discussions. Make no mistake, Twitter made it possible for an activist to write a post describing an unfolding political situation in detail from their phone straight onto Twitter and potentially change the course of history when a major news picks it up... SPECIFICALLY so that teenagers could easily share memes with each other and fans could easily keep up with their favorite celebrity bullshit. Even before shitstick mcspacepants bought Twitter, the company if anything actively disliked this subversive, radically democratic potential within its product.
I think it is damning though that with all the structure Discord brings to the table over something like a microblog, most of the time it utterly fails to elevate the conversation along any metric, especially ones relevant to expert and niche topics. Compare that to Lemmy or Reddit, and even after you handwave away the particular differences of structure and goals in as generous as a fashion possible to Discord, the contrast in quality of conversation and knowledge curated is staggering.
In the general chat sure. Most large discord servers have dozens of channels with more focused discussions.
I don't think much in this is specific to Discord so much as it is to chat/IM in general. Honestly we use both chat (yes via Discord although I'd love to move to Matrix) and forums. They just serve completely different roles. Traditional style forums (whatever it is, Discourse, Flarum, Github Discussions) work really well for "long form" topics and asynchronous conversations. i.e. if there is something to discuss that is complex and can attract valid conversation over the course of days/weeks/months then it is ideal.
Chat on the other hand is great for co-ordinating and asking quick one-off questions that will get you an answer really quickly. We use it all the time to just discuss general plans, ideas etc. and answer simple questions like "how do I do x?".
I think most of the (justified) hatred is to those projects that only have a community via chat which is valid - on big projects it can be somewhat difficult to get a word in and get noticed if you have a "simple" question which wouldn't be a problem on a forum.
The problem with the concept of "Quick one off questions go to discord" concept is when the second through infinite people have the same question or issue. Discord isn't crawled by search engines, and it ties up support staff/developers with answering repeat questions. Nevermind the time zone issue.
Like, I get that conversation isn't as dynamic, but you can always schedule a time to chat dynamically.
I hang out in the Python discord quite a lot and it seems to work well for this purpose. I will say that Python's core library and many of the most popular packages are well documented, so it's definitely not a case where discord is the main source of knowledge and that's a good thing. However, a lot of people on there are new to development and don't know where to start, so we answer their beginner questions while teaching them how to search the docs for answers.
The moment I see the same question popping up more than a couple of times is an indication that it should be documented by somewhere that is actually indexed by search engines, normally the website/faq/docs/wiki as it is clear there is something missing.
To me, as part of a small team/project, it feels so much better to be able to use chat for every day communication just as I would at work. It allows a lot more expression in communication than forum posting. It has really helped us have a good sense of community and teamwork we might have not otherwise had.
Right, there is nothing wrong with discord type services other then the fact that I hate them and find them annoying and impossible to engage with, but that is a personal opinion I can just sit there and deal with if communities also have other places I can interact with them online but again for the overwhelming majority of them…. they don’t.
My whole life I have been very much a “social butterfly” engaging in lots of different hobby communities and enjoying learning and reading expert conversations on niche things I never knew about. In the last 6 years or so, more than anything else Discord has been destroying my capacity to do enjoy doing that. I join a Discord server about something I am passionate about and I just can’t find the interesting conversations anywhere (even though the topics are extremely interesting to me) and I end up zoning out and disengaging with the community. I also need an account to search old conversations which feels VERY VERY wrong to me.
My point isn’t “woe is me” but to stand up and sound the alarm that we are rapidly losing agency, searchability and general knowledge curation capacity systematically across digital communities as the Discord tidal wave envelopes all. It has and will do massive longterm damage to the health of internet communities.
I mean, for goodness sake my damn workplace was trying to unionize (hell yeah) and we had a great signal chat that was very focused going on (not perfect by any means) and then a couple of people who like Discord got EVERYTHING to move to Discord and….. guess how effective we were at organizing our ≈110 person company?
Spoilers, we weren’t, at all.
It just crushed me to see people trying to agitate and encourage people to think outside the narrative of what the boss says is possible or how people’s relationship to work has to look like according to the boss, but there was zero creative or imaginative power to conceive of the politics and consequences of the tools we were using to organize or thought into how a communication tool fundamentally impacts the kind of conversations that happen in favor of others. I get that it wasn’t the primary question, but it seems to me like a far more relevant question than people gave it credit for, especially since our solution was “use the popular social media service being massively subsidized by investors in an attempt to develop an unassailable monopoly on the industry” which seems like not a great place to build the future of worker power, especially since Discord is a U.S. based company.
Some of these issues would probably be avoided if the server enforced using the threads feature for topics and conversations, but at that point you might as well just use reddit (or lemmy).
Check out revolt, its (Libre)FOSS discord. https://revolt.chat/
Definitely glad this exists, has anyone tried it here who can speak to how nice of an experience it is? Does it have voice channels?
Sucks ass until it gets proper push to talk and voice activation
I worked before in a startup with 30~40 members.
Discord was awesome for communication an administrative bulletins, you could check at a glance everyone who was online and join calls in a single click.
Also we had text channels for specific projects, and for a in-depth discussion of a specific thing we created threads in the same channel, anything of importance could also be pinned down.
With that out of the way, I think if done correctly, It works just fine, It's a different medium than a forum, since the last is used for future reference, and the former is for on-demand discussions.
Also any platform can be shitty If the wrong person is holding the reins (i.e. Github issues boards)