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Are we the baddies?
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this post was submitted on 24 Mar 2024
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It's a not uncommon theme in anime: some large imperialist/war nation or one associated with fire or occupying Japan.
It's also worth noting that Japan had a history of imperialism and occupied a significant portion of the world around them not too long ago.
Japan has a pretty similar world view to us. I don't know a lot about Japanese culture, but I think a lot of its similarities contribute to anime's popularity in the US. We both have pretty rigid class structures, appreciate violence and capitalism and are enamored with technology.
I know that Avatar is American, perhaps I just wanted to air out a pet theory, however I think it's good for us to explore some of these assumptions with art and stories.
I think most of us aren't the baddies though.
To be fair Not all fire nation citizens are bad either
Usually when there's a imperialistic government it's very rarely every citizens fault
A comforting/not comforting thought
I sort of believe that the vast majority of whoever from wherever would happily get along, but we still have wars.
Japan has a similar worldview to Americans because there's been multiple points in history where we brute forced our ways on them, conveniently at times where their old ways were losing faith.
Forcing Japans borders open while they remained isolated with outdated weaponry, and the end of WW2.
Capitalism was drilled into their culture until it's teeth sunk in and they had their economic boom.
Japan went from feudalism to an emerging modern industrialized state in what, 40 years? Industrial Revolution speedrun.
The irony of a diverse set of people from around the world talking about an American cartoon and in the same breath saying that American only knows war is not lost on me
The US cultural victory'd so hard that it's hard to recognize it sometimes
Avatar is American, but it had fantastic cultural consultants.
Yeah the fire nation has way more similarities to Imperial Japan than anyone else. Island nation industrializes before their neighbours and just starts taking over. Style of dress, the archesticure, the names of the characters, all give a Japan vibe way more than an American vibe. But maybe drinking tea in a ceremonial fashion is something that's part of American culture that I wasn't aware of.
But currently the US is protecting global trade from pirates and sending weapons to democracies defending themselves from authoritarian psychopaths, which to some people is exactly how the Fire Nation behaved in Avatar I guess.
We have stopped sending weapons to Ukraine but have continued sending weapons to Israel.
Nothing about what you describe as is cut and dry as you are describing it. The easiest way to protect global trade from pirates would be to stop using global trade to arm psychopaths.
So your solution is just to do whatever the psychopath Houthis tell us to do?
Neville Chamberlain tried a policy of appeasement, it didn't work. And when you're thinking that psychopaths that attack civilians working on a commercial cargo ship are the good guys, your world view is really messed up.
If attacking civilians is the mark of psychopathology then the US does a good job of arming such nations. What the Houthis are doing is not happening in a vacuum. They have a history of resisting regimes propped up by the US. Does that make them saints? No. But we're not any better.
I agree, it's not happening in a vacuum. The Houthis are doing the old fascist plot of blaming the Jews to gain power. We've seen it all before. This is what the biggest losers in history do again and again.
A movement under a flag of "Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews", is a movement based on hate and it's destruction is inevitable. Attacking global shipping is just them speeding up the timetable, but the end result was always going to be the same.
A lot of antisemitism mixed with a feeling of religious exceptionalism has resulted in hate movement in Yemen that thinks they won't go the same way as similar movements in the past. They're wrong.
The guys trying to stop a genocide are the good guys. I do have some criticisms of them, but any actions that decrease the ability to carry out genocide is a net positive.
Is your point that the outcome justifies the means? I feel the need to point out that this statement is dangerous, and statements like it have been used to justify evil acts.
You know what else is dangerous? Giving a genocidal state more weapons.
What the fuck?
Nowhere in my statement did I defend giving Israel weapons, this is a position I am strongly against.
My point in writing that comment was to point out that using fascist rhetoric is bad, no matter who is saying it. I support the Palestinians, but I would not support dropping nukes on Israel. Stating that any means would be justified gives the other side ammunition to attack you (and others with similar views as you) with.
"Any means" is the same reasoning the USA used when nuking Japan. And it's the same reasoning that is currently being used to kill innocent civilians in the Gaza strip.
There's no fascist rhetoric, we're all capable of understanding context.
What is your support of the Palestinians worth?
You are justifying actions against the people who are making a material impact at stopping a genocide. Even though those actions largely consist of bombing yemeni civilians, and wouldn't be justified anyway as they're being performed in service of a genocide.
Once again you have prescribed a position to me that I do not have. I haven't defended the actions of either the US or Israel, merely pointed out that YOU are using bad arguments.
I have donated a small amount (I still need to pay rent) to the Palestinian relief fund. Is my contribution not valid because the value is only $200? Is that really what we are dogging on people for now?
I have not defended the US bombings in Yemen, and have personally participated in two protests of these attacks (One at my state capital and one at my local university.)
I need you to understand that people will look at statements like "the ends justify the means" as justification to keep killing Palestinians. You are actively making my job as a progressive harder by saying things like this.
I'm honestly not sure if you aren't looking at names or if you are just arguing in bad faith here. The original comment I responded to was a response to an even worse take that was not made by me. Stop prescribing people positions that they don't have, have not stated, and have actively been against.
I'm not against the Palestinians or Yemeni population, I am against rhetoric that can be used to justify genocides. You can support these groups just as well by saying things other than "any action against Israel is justified"
An ethnic cleansing of the Israeli population would reduce their capability of genocide, but is still an evil that I could not support.
Apologies, I didn't notice that you weren't the original guy responded to, who was condemning the Houthi's actions.
In the context of the US, condemning the Houthi's anti-genocide actions is equivalent to supporting the genocide, in the same way that Americans and Israelis criticizing LGBT rights within Palestine or Iran or Russia; while the criticism may be valid within a vacuum, in the context of America, those criticisms only serve to justify imperialism.