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this post was submitted on 03 Apr 2024
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I've met a bunch of Ukrainians online that just want the war done. They don't care who wins. They're seeing their family and friends die and they just want it to stop.
People seem to forget that this thing started because two oblasts didn't want to be part of Ukraine anymore. Russia escalated it for sure, but it still started as a separatist movement inside Ukraine.
Bullshit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donetsk_People's_Republic
There's a luhansk one as well.
Russia backed those separatists. Russia escalated it, but there was a sizable portion of the population that wanted out of Ukraine. I have zero idea how they feel about the 2022 annexation.
As even your Wikipedia article mentions, even though the east of Ukraine hasn't always been in the same page politically, this separatist movement is fairly new and probably fueled by Russia since at least the 2010s and exploded after the Euromaidan protests .
You can see it by checking the Ukrainian Referendum of Independence of 1991.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Ukrainian_independence_referendum
Only 12-13% in those oblasts voted no, compared to the whopping 42% from Crimea, which is understandable because it was originally Russian territory ceded to the Ukranian SSR by Nikita Khrushchev as a gesture of goodwill (not that it justifies the 2014 annexation it suffered by Russia).
Even though the vote was about leaving the USSR, we can't separate the Russian question completely from it, and it was an important issue during the referendum.
Those Russian speaking separatists got heavily influenced by Russian disinformation and propaganda for years in preparation of the invasion, and supported by the Russian armed forces, precisely to have this justification. This is like saying Putin got 88% in the election, so clearly that's the will of the people. Assuming that authoritarian regimes lead by secret service agents play by the rules of democracy is dangerous.
Imo it's remarkable how successful they are at spreading their twisted narratives, even in western countries.
Is there something valuable in that region? Seems like removing them from Ukraine would be a smart choice to get rid of them. Since Ukraine was prospering better than Russia, give them what they want
Fossil fuel and heavy infrastructure.
Russia is just helping those who want to leave leave yes that’s the ticket. The best way to do this is to try to decapitate the country’s leadership with a full scale invasion that includes devastating its infrastructure affecting millions of civilian lives.
Yes
Not to mention, this is an issue in Palestine where there's no guarantee that the people displaced will be able to return their homes if they leave. That's the Egypt defense at least, but there's plenty of Americans who agree with that notion.
By the same principle, Russia allowing people to leave but preventing them from returning would be atrocious.
I really thought about putting some type of disclaimer about how this was a response I expected.
I regret not putting that down.
The online discourse on this is so black and white it's ridiculous.
There can be multiple reasons for things. Doesn't mean that any side is some type of white Knight.
War, with its life and death seriousness, doesn’t leave a lot of room for nuanced arguments. Those are for peacetime. For now it’s simply Russia is the aggressor, Ukraine the defender, and Ukraine represents western democracy in a part of the world that is known for corrupt oligarchs. We back Ukraine not just because it’s right, but sensible. it’s that simple imo.
Russia doesn't have Oligarchs it has minor nobles being viceroys, all power is by the grace of the Tsar -- it's even the Tsar's power that they wield, probably unconstitutional for the Russian president to divide and give out his power and authority like that.
Ukraine still has actual oligarchs, though their influence is waning: Basically, when you're a shady businessman one of the best strategies is to enjoy parliamentary immunity so those businessmen all sought office but they were never a unified block, they are competitors and often hate each other's guts. The people thus got to be the kingmaker, could choose their favourite oligarch to run the country. Zelensky got electoral push from one of those Oligarchs because the incumbent Oligarch fucked that one over over some oil deals.
List of current oligarchs https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_oligarchs?wprov=sfti1#See_also
List of past Viceroyalties, which seemed to come to an end in early 1900s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_viceroyalties_of_the_Russian_Empire?wprov=sfti1#
I did learn that there’s an actual current Tsar in Russia working to restore Imperialist Russia? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchess_Maria_Vladimirovna_of_Russia?wprov=sfti1#Role_in_Russia_and_activities
Haha very funny.
But just to make this clear: The "Russian Oligarch" link you sent starts off with people from the 90s -- that generation is gone, replaced by people hand-picked by Putin. They did not become filthily rich and then came to dominate politics, it's the other way around: Trusted by Putin, they got installed in positions of power which comes with the privilege of skimming off money. That's the exact same system the Tsars had. Putin knew Prigozhin since the 90s, they were old buddies.
Russia could, in principle, have turned towards an actual oligarchy like Ukraine, the oligarchs certainly tried to, see e.g. Khodorkovsky. In Russia the Siloviki didn't let that happen, every single one of those oligarchs committed some crime you can nail them for -- or not, if they stay in their lane, meaning out of politics. In Ukraine, for one reason or the other, that didn't happen, they were let into parliament where they then could slowly be disempowered by the people, instead of three letter agency cadres. Which is also how power ultimately ended up with the people in Russia and (broadly speaking) the FSB in Russia.
Pretty sure they will care who wins when they get shipped off to Russian labor camps or sent to the front lines for whatever shit putin decides to invade next. I feel for their losses of loved ones but that's a pretty dumb take.
Polls show that Ukrainians overwhelmingly want to fight Russia off. ~~You're~~Your "bunch of Ukrainians online" was probably Kremlin shills.
Could be. There's lots of shills and bots out there