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Not that bad
(lemmy.ml)
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this post was submitted on 05 May 2023
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Its not good, its just not as horrible when compared to a lot of other countries.
Tough to defend position if you only consider systems intact today (and thereby filtering out nazi-Germany for example)!
The US only has made a science out of propaganda (see Walter Lippman & Edward Bernays) and the capital to pay for it all over the word (NED/bellingcat/victims of communism foundation/radio free liberty|europe|iraq|asia/"congress for cultural freedom" and other direct CIA derivatives)
Its whole shtick is to manufacture narratives to paint your opponent so bad that you appear without alternative. Be it domestically (presidential elections) or abroad (country x is ruled by the next hitler)
I am not gonna attempt to compile a list, bc i would want have to add sources and I am tired to loom that up. But start with Operation Condor since OP kindly mentioned that, but the rabbit hole goes deep
I think what a "bad" country is should be properly defined if this argument were to continue. Are we comparing what impact countries have had on the world overall? If so, what exactly is a negative impact and how do you measure it?What time frame are we looking at?
While I think it would be interesting to do so, I'm not the person to continue this argument further. I don't know enough, nor do I have the time to learn enough to do the topic justice. I guess we can just agree that the US sucks.
Also cool username, its kinda like mine.
I appreciate the honest response and honestly I relate to the sentiment of not engaging in this discussion further as these are typically extremely wide ranging and require a lot of contextualisation, doing this online can be extremely exhausting.
But I find the question you are raising quite interesting as to how exactly a countries (govs) impact on the progress of humanity is to be defined. This is exactly the direction in which I was thinking to go when I was considering to compile a list.
Thanks for the compliment about my username;) I don't really associate your name with anything concrete but I assume there was a drug trafficker from LA who was referred to by that name? I am not from the states so I might not know everybody that has become infamous like that!
Literally can't think of any single country that comes even close to the amount of atrocities US regularly commits around the globe.
I'll admit I'm not an expert on this but I don't think that's right. What about Russia or China? I would also say that many smaller countries are far worse than the US, but their atrocities are on a much smaller scale given their fewer resources.
Nothing Russia or China have done even comes close. US has been at war for 92% of its existence. It has been invading countries and killing countless millions of people while creating incredible amounts of human suffering for the survivors of US aggression. US massacred over 6 million people with its war on terror alone.
On top of that, US has been destabilizing countries, overthrowing democracies, and putting in despotic dictatorships like Pinochet in Chile. Entire books have been written documenting these crimes against humanity.
On the other hand, China hasn't been at war since the 70s, and it certainly has the same resources available to it to wage war that US does. Instead, it chooses to peacefully create mutually beneficial relationships with countries. Russia has been at war, but even the war in Ukraine doesn't begin to compare to atrocities such as the invasion of Iraq and the war on terror.
If you're an American, then you should be deeply ashamed of your ignorance regarding what your country does. The people of US are directly responsible for the crimes they allow their government to commit. The blood is on your hands.
edit: I love how mad you're all getting when faced with the basic facts about your shithole nation. America is the genocidal regime and a plight upon the world. And since you all claim to have a democracy over there, you are all personally responsible for the atrocities your regime commits.
You enable them and benefit from them while pretending that it's actually the other countries that are the problem instead of doing any self reflection and fixing your own shithole. You are the most deplorable nation, unable to even look in the mirror.
Any thoughts on the Great Leap Forward? How about the Uyghur genocide?
Uyghur genocide is a US made up conspiracy theory that's been thoroughly debunked, and it's frankly incredible that people keep regurgitating it.
The millions of Uyghurs being supposedly imprisoned story is based on two highly dubious “studies.”. CHRD states that it interviewed dozens of ethnic Uyghurs in the course of its study, but their enormous estimate was ultimately based on interviews with exactly eight Uyghur individuals. Based on this absurdly small sample of research subjects in an area whose total population is 20 million, CHRD “extrapolated estimates” that “at least 10% of villagers […] are being detained in re-education detention camps, and 20% are being forced to attend day/evening re-education camps in the villages or townships, totaling 30% in both types of camps.” Furthermore, it doesn't even make sense from logistics perspective. You’d need a detention city the size of San Francisco to detain one million Uighurs.
Practically all the stories we see about China trace back to Adrian Zenz is a far right fundamentalist nutcase and not a reliable source for any sort of information. The fact that he's the primary source for practically every article in western media demonstrates precisely what I'm talking about when I say that coverage is divorced from reality.
Zenz is a born-again Christian who lectures at the European School of Culture and Theology. This anodyne-sounding campus is actually the German base of Columbia International University, a US-based evangelical Christian seminary which considers the “Bible to be the ultimate foundation and the final truth in every aspect of our lives,” and whose mission is to “educate people from a biblical worldview to impact the nations with the message of Christ.”
Zenz’s work on China is inspired by this biblical worldview, as he recently explained in an interview with the Wall Street Journal. “I feel very clearly led by God to do this,” he said. “I can put it that way. I’m not afraid to say that. With Xinjiang, things really changed. It became like a mission, or a ministry.”.
Along with his “mission” against China, heavenly guidance has apparently prompted Zenz to denounce homosexuality, gender equality, and the banning of physical punishment against children as threats to Christianity.
Zenz outlined these views in a book he co-authored in 2012, titled Worthy to Escape: Why All Believers Will Not Be Raptured Before the Tribulation. In the tome, Zenz discussed the return of Jesus Christ, the coming wrath of God, and the rise of the Antichrist.
The fact that this nutcase is being paraded as a credible researcher on the subject is absolutely surreal, and it's clear that the methodology of his "research" doesn't pass any kind of muster when examined closely.
Meanwhile, the Great Leap Forward was a flawed policy as opposed to intentional genocide which is what US regularly commits. However, even that is eclipsed by the sheer scale of the genocide US committed against the native population.
While you are working on your imaginary enemy Zenz, there are outside of your bubble, i.e. in real life, a lot of independent contemporary witnesses who were able to escape and made their experience public
In real life we have far more concrete evidence for the concentration camps US has on its border, and the the fact that you lot keep trying to find some genocide in China while ignoring the one US does really shows that you don't care about people one bit. You're just racists who hate China and everybody outside your bubble of racists knows this. You are very transparent.
These are some hot takes. Now do Tian An Men square
Aww y'all still sour your color revolution failed https://redsails.org/another-view-of-tiananmen/
Mr. Madison, what you’ve just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
I see you've made a self referential comment.
You seem to just disregard everything any country does unless its the US. You are also only looking at what countries have done outside their borders, which I don't think is the best way to look at it.
This is completely nonsensical and just plain stupid. Even if our democracy actually worked, I would be 1/150 million votes. My bad, next time I'll just vote differently. Problem solved!
I don't see anyone claiming it's without issue. They were responding to where you ignored everything wrong China has done, clearly demonstrating your bias. You ignored or downplayed every point they brought up just so you could feel like China was the good guy.
Trust me, no nation state is the good guy. They don't do things just because they are good, or just because they are bad. They are all selfish and greedy, they pay no mind to the lives they trample over to achieve glory and power. The CCP would brutally murder you in a second flat if it meant they were an inch closer to their goals. There is no point in defending them.
No.
The government of a country that calls itself democratic represents the will of the people in that country. That's literally what a democracy is. Either US is an authoritarian regime where the government is not implementing the wishes of the people, or the people of US are responsible for what US government is doing. Can't have it both ways.
The whole context of this thread is that China hasn't done anything that even begins to compare to what US does. Yet, you point fingers at China instead of fixing your own country or even taking responsibility for what your country does. This is a morally bankrupt position.
China lifted over 800 million people out of poverty and CPC continues to ensure that the quality of life for people in China is improving each and every year. Seems to me that those are much better goals than starting wars around the globe and murdering people which is what US does.
Not really a response but ok.
It effectively is an authoritarian regime with no regard for its peoples wishes. Whatever democracy we have does not work.
I don't need to take responsibility for it. I have yet to commit any war crimes or massacre innocent people. I do acknowledge that the US has done so, however.
China oppresses its people far more than the US. Its not even a competition. Tell the Uyghurs about that "quality of life".
Then perhaps Americans should fixing on their own country instead of fixating on what countries like China might be doing. US has no moral right to play global police, and people in US have no moral ground to criticize other countries.
As a citizen of US you bear responsibility for what your country does. People in US directly benefit from the global plundering and exploitation that US does, and unless you're actively working on changing that then you are part of the system that enables these atrocities.
Have you met any Uyghurs living in China. You just admitted that you live in an oppressive authoritarian regime, but you completely believe what it tells you about China?
However, truth leaks even into western media now and then, here's what an actual Uyghur interviewed by AP has to say
Here's the GDP in Xinjiang going up 5.1% which is directly resulting in the quality of life improving https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202307/1295093.shtml
Meanwhile, US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, far higher than China. And the prisoners are routinely used as literal slave labour. That's the country that oppresses its people, and you're right that it's not even a competition because China doesn't do anything of the sort.
I don't enable anything. I am stripped of my power on purpose so I can't stop this. I have no choice, there is absolutely nothing I can do. Its completely absurd that you think I can just go fix it. How do you suppose I do that exactly? Not only can I not stop it, but it does not benefit me. It benefits a very small minority of Americans who have infinitely more power and money than I do.
My news sources are not the american government. I have the freedom to get real information unlike citizens of China.
You seriously think China doesn't oppress its people at all? I can't even fathom the amount of evidence you have to disregard to believe that.
That's completely false. You can spend time learning about the atrocities US commits, and educating others. You can start organizing politically within your community or join an existing organization that likely exists. How do you think people have overthrown other oppressive regimes, there's nothing unique about the US. What enables this monstrosity to perpetuate is precisely you kind of attitude that there is nothing that can be done. The country is its people, and as long as people are willing to accept what their regime is doing the horrors continue.
LMFAO
I seriously don't think that China oppresses people in any way that's even remotely comparable to the way US oppresses its people as well as people all around the globe. I'm really curious how you formed your strong opinions regarding China. Have you lived in China, do you speak Chinese language, do you talk to people who actually live there?
Ay dude, you are really a chinese bot, arnt you? So much astroturfing, don't ya got any hobbies, expect licking Xijingpings dick, online everyday?
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Thanks, my SCHUFA score is actually pretty good! If you believe China does not have such a scoring system, you are not only dumb but also naive.
Of course they do, y’all love to do the “+100 social credit” thing all the time
Where can I check my score, btw?
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Imagine being a grown ass adult and writing this comment. Maybe go outside and think hard about life choices you've made.
Imagine spending all day defending China and Russia online. Are you even Chinese? If so, maybe you should leave for a while, and see how the world is behind the great firewall
What are you laughing at? Try accessing a website not endorsed by the CCP inside China, see what happens.
Oh I'm sorry I didn't realize all I had to do was overthrow my government. All this time I thought it was effectively impossible because any movement against them would be extinguished without a second thought by the ridiculously powerful US military.
You go against the US, you die. There is no overthrowing them, not for the time being anyway. How naive are you that you think I am 100% in control of my overlords. If I tried anything, I would die and nothing would change. I don't think its worth throwing away my life to make absolutely no difference.
If you are so fucking stupid that you would blame me for the US's crimes that I had nothing to do with, then I don't see any point in arguing with you more.
I'm laughing at you thinking that your oligarch owned media is somehow more objective than state media, the fact that you don't even know how to spell CPC says a lot about the information diet you consume. Entire books have been written on the subject of public opinion manipulation by western media. Here are a couple you might want to read
This shows such a profound lack of understanding of how anything works. The shitty US military consists of a few hundred thousand people who rely on the rest of the country to operate. If there was a popular movement in US against the regime then the military couldn't do much about it. In fact, if you weren't ignorant of your own history then you'd know that such a movement existed back in the 1930s during the great depression. That's what resulted in the New Deal being created to appease the people and prevent a revolution. When millions of working class people organize then change happens. When people like you pretend that nothing can be done atrocities continue.
The only one fucking stupid here is the guy who is utterly ignorant of history or how social change works in practice. You're absolutely right that arguing with you is pointless, you're uneducated and you confidently believe absurdities.
No such movement can grow large enough to pose a threat without being extinguished along the way. This country is built to prevent that from happening. Sure its happened before elsewhere, but what about all the times it failed and countless people died in the process.
But no, I'm responsible for the deaths of thousands because I'm not risking my life fighting a losing battle.
I have access to other countries' media, unlike Chinese citizens. I also have the ability to determine how biased information is. I'm not automatically brainwashed by propaganda just because I live here. If I was, I would be far less willing to admit how awful this country is. Also CCP, Chinese communist party. What is wrong about that? CPC means cost per click.
You just keep repeating that like a broken record, yet such movements have grown successfully in the past in many countries. Nothing about the current situation in US is unique. If you bothered to actually educate yourself on the subject instead of arguing online then you might get a more informed perspective. Meanwhile, saying that because success is not guaranteed people shouldn't fight against a repressive regime is frankly spineless.
You are responsible for the death and suffering that result from the actions of the US empire around the world because you refuse to take any action to stop what your regime does. You went from claiming there's nothing you can do to admitting there's nothing you want to do because you don't want to lose your personal comfort. You don't care about the suffering of others as long as you're fine.
The fact that you think Chinese citizens don't have access to other countries media really shows that you just guzzle propaganda from your regime. What you've demonstrated in this thread is that you don't see your own biases. Also, CCP is not a thing. It's called Communist Party of China, that's the actual name of the party. It's like if I insisted on calling your shithole country ASU as opposed to what it chooses to call itself. This is just another subtle form of chauvinism you internalize thinking that western scumbags get to decide the name of the Communist Party of China as opposed to Chinese people. Using CCP exposes you as a chauvinist.
Its called self preservation. Success isn't "not garunteed", its almost garunteed to not happen. Its a practically insurmountable task.
I didn't even consider overthrowing them as an option because of how ridiculous of an idea that is.
I am aware its not literally impossible, maybe I should have made that more clear. But information is far more controlled there than it is here. Why would I guzzle propaganda from something I openly admit is an authoritarian regime? I think China sucks because China sucks, I don't need propaganda to tell me that.
I do not care what the literal translation is, that's not how you translate things. You say it how it makes the most sense in the language you translate it to. If ASU made more sense in your language than USA, I would say go for it. Nearly everyone that speaks English calls it the CCP, I'm not exposing myself as anything by using what is widely considered to be correct language.
That's how you justify benefiting from the regime and your implicit support for it.
Claiming that mass movements are a ridiculous idea is a historically illiterate position to take. The only reason you take this position is because you're not personally affected by all the suffering caused both domestically and abroad by what your regime does. One day you may find yourself affected as well as you country continues to implode politically and economically, and by then it will be too late to take any meaningful action. You deserve what's coming to you.
You think China sucks because of the information you consume that tells you that China sucks. Again, have you been to China, do you speak the language, do you talk to people who live in China. If the answer to these questions is no, then what precisely is your claim that China sucks based on, the garbage you read in western media about China?
Yeah, actually that's exactly how you translate things. You take the official translation made by the government of China instead of making one up yourself. The fact that you would even argue this point is frankly surreal. You very much are exposing yourself as a chauvinist both by using the made up name that your regime gave the party and claiming that China sucks without any actual knowledge of China. You're a chauvinist.
Im the one being exploited into paying for it, and you think im benefitting from it? How fucking dare you accuse me of something so heinous just because I don't want to challenge the most powerful entity on the entire planet. You are a sick delusional piece of shit and there is no getting through to you. Go tell all your tankie friends you won the argument, you broke me.
Here's what real exploitation looks like that western corps use every day to produce shit you consume. And these horrors are enabled by spineless western public who refuse to challenge their regimes. Instead you'll bravely berate people who point this out to you. Can call me names all you like, but won't change the fact that the empire exists because of people like you.
https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/12/mars-nestle-and-hershey-to-face-landmark-child-slavery-lawsuit-in-us
FoRcEd LaBor https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1222413.shtml
uses a Chinese source ... Of course, China does nothing wrong! Who decided that? Of course a Chinese committee
Uses a U.S. source… Of course, China does everything wrong! Who decided that? Of course a US committee
Just conveniently forgets the part where China was colonized by the U.S. and a bunch of European countries…
Japan also did it! Everybody has to do that at some point, it's fun.
I hear it’s less prevalent in Japan though, maybe due to cash still being used more?