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this post was submitted on 09 Jun 2024
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No Stupid Questions
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No such thing. Ask away!
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Okay, post some mainstream feminist discourse that says otherwise. Highly influential feminists like Dworkin go as far as saying that any sexual intercourse with men is sexual assault.
"She is often said to argue that "all heterosexual sex is rape", based on the line from the book that says, "Violation is a synonym for intercourse." However, Dworkin has denied this interpretation, stating, "What I think is that sex must not put women in a subordinate position. It must be reciprocal and not an act of aggression from a man looking only to satisfy himself. That's my point."[1]"
Second paragraph on wikipedia...
But she posits that patriarchy is all encompassing and subordinates all women. Even the feminist that wrote the forward said that's what she meant.
Numerous feminists have said they interpreted that way. It's hard to take her denial seriously given the context of her book and the rest of her writings.
"She didn't actually say what she said in the book. Or what she said in multiple interviews. She really said whatever dumb strawman I want to make up."
First, Dworkin has never said that and did not think that.
Second, she died almost twenty years ago my dude. Intercourse was published in '87 during the second wave of feminism. Why are you misquoting her as an example of current mainstream discourse? And even if we're going to be talking about feminist views of the 80's, you're conveniently ignoring sex-positive feminism. The sex wars were like, the defining feminist debate of that era.
She did in fact say that and your link doesn't refute that. And sex positive feminism is not sex positive for men. As I've said many times before I'm talking about mainstream feminist discourse. Feminist always use this tactic of digging up some progressive strain of feminism knowing full well it's not influential.
Dworkin may have died awhile ago but her work is still regularly cites and studies by mainstream feminism and her influence can be seen in movies like the Barbie movie.
http://www.nostatusquo.com/ACLU/dworkin/MoorcockInterview.html
All she's saying is that she meant maritial sex is a form of violence because maritial rape was legal, which wasn't even true.
It's a distinction without a difference.
She's saying women cannot legally consent to sex in marriage when marital rape is legal. She wasn't saying that all sex was violent, she was saying it was all not the "free act of a free woman" because wives were property of their husbands and could be legally raped even if they denied sexual consent.
Also, marital rape was fully legal in the entirety of the US until the 1970s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape_in_the_United_States
You seem to have a pretty loose grasp on the issues here. I get that you didn't like the Barbie movie, but that all that means is that you didn't like the Barbie movie.
She was and she says it in both that and other wrirings and publically.
She argued that penetration was a form of "occupation".
She labeled women that had sexual with men "collaborators".
But defenders like you will split hairs to make it seem like her demonization of male sexuality is just made up by her critics.
Lol, I literally have never heard of the lady until this thread, but sure it's me with an agenda.
With better reading comprehension instead of "man get real angry when word men used to describe things men do generally" even those quotes aren't saying what you think they're saying...and that's with no attribution or sources so I don't even know if they're misquotes.
EDIT: Also you sidestepped your completely invalid claim that marital rape was illegal always because you argue in bad faith
Come now. She very clearly denies saying it in the interview I linked to:
If you want to claim she's lying about her own statements, find me a direct quote of her saying it.
She did say it's degrading and a form of contempt inflicted by men on women. In the context of the books it's not at all unreasonable to interpret it as rape.
Regardless it DOES posit male sexuality and violence and degragation of women when it is expressesed.
Regardless that's her influence even if unintentional and it's all over media and culture.
This is exactly my point. This is a harsh misunderstanding at what she was getting at...
She is saying that the reality of sex for the vast majority of history has been about men dominating women, not interested in satisfying the women involved, but someone already covered that point.