this post was submitted on 09 Aug 2025
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Hello ,

As the title says what happens if theUK requires age verification for VPN’s or makes it illegal to use them?

Does that mean everyone will move to tor or I2P?

It seems if the UK gov keep pushing their agenda under the guise of protecting children people will increasingly go dark .

I guess what I’m asking is how does everyone think this will unfold?

M

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[–] dsilverz@calckey.world 30 points 6 days ago (3 children)

@mysticmartz@lemmy.world

First and foremost, it's not something limited to UK. Maybe it's because I'm watching things from "outside" the so-called "first world" (I'm Brazilian), and I can't help but notice how it's something that have been spreading throughout the countries: Canadian bill whose number I forgot, EU's "Chat Control", some Australian laws, etc... It's getting everywhere! It didn't start yesterday, also: I remember SOPA and PIPA back in 2010s (or was it 2000s? I'm getting old).

It's worldwide, and it won't be long before there are no more countries where "nothing to fear, nothing to hide" is the official motto via some kind of global treat/pact. It won't stop in adult entertainment: eventually, it'll cover every online activity. In this sense, "children" are just the frogs being morally leveraged by scorpions to cross an Orwellian river.

That said, VPNs are someone else's computers sitting between latitudinal and longitudinal coordinates delimiting some geodesic convex hull we know as "country/nation" ruled by an entity who happens to have the monopoly over asymmetrical forces ruling over that very someone. Even nodes from Tor, I2P, Yggdrasil, Hyphanet, GNUNet, Usenet servers or grand-old SOCKS4/SOCKS4a/SOCKS5 proxies are someone else's computer sitting inside some "country".

And if all countries end up agreeing, out of shared dominance interests (even the so-called "inimical" countries, because even those "inimical" countries agree on certain treats such as the Global Treat regarding Antarctica), to some kind of "Online Kid Protection Global Treat" or whatever frog they can take any moral advantage of, there will be no computer proxification left for circumventing the new KYC requirements for accessing the Web, because there'll be no more alternative countries left... Not even micronations such as Principality of Sealand.

Yeah, future doesn't seem good, and the majority of global citizens won't fight against it (we, privacy-conscious and tech-savvy people, we're not the majority), so it's kind of a Cassandra curse going on right now.

Maybe we must go back to radio communication? Radio mesh networks? Perhaps well-hidden geo-treasure pen-drives for exchanging and archiving files? Creating our own novel ciphering methods, steganography and security through obscurity, becoming able to physically speak through coded language on a daily basis? Even carrier pigeons and smoke signaling (I'm not joking) feels "safe" and out of the Orwellian reaches for now... For now.

(I guess they could still be spotted by LEO satellite imagery. And god-forbid a smoke pattern is caught modulating and transmitting the original uncropped Lena picture over the atmosphere /s).

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 3 points 6 days ago

I wonder if Tor and I2P's other hops could eventually be obfuscated like bridges are now, so that a network could entirely exist within plain sight without being as blatant.

[–] mysticmartz@lemmy.world 4 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Those LoRa devices like meshtastic look good. I don’t like the idea of TOR and I2C because it’s known to hold disgusting and concerning stuff. But the original principles of the internet and a Cipherpunk approach is on the way .

[–] dsilverz@calckey.world 14 points 6 days ago

@mysticmartz@lemmy.world

Those LoRa devices like meshtastic look good

Yeah, tinkering with radio and Open-source hardware in general is funny and awesome. I did some personal projects in this regard, not exactly meshtastic, but experiments using a cheap RTL-SDR and some transmission-capable things such as Baofeng UV-5R and remote controllers from some of my childhood toys. I wish I could afford to experiment more with hardware, electronic and, especially, radio equipment.

Unfortunately, it's like @dubyakay@lemmy.ca said, radio equipment can become targets, too.

In reality, this is already happening in EU: recently, I saw something about EU passing a law requiring all radio-capable devices to be, as far as I can recall, "tampering-proof" or something similar, and this is threatening alternative mobile OSes (such as GrapheneOS) because this law requires bootloaders to be unlockable or something. So, in practice, governments are already targeting radio.

Not to mention how "easy" is to triangulate a signal and how telecommunication regulators often do "wardrive" scanning in order to seek "irregular transmissions" (not just those disrupting others' transmissions, but anything they could deem "irregular" because they're the authorities in charge of allowing or refusing others rights, and this deemed "irregularity" could easily be using Briar through Bluetooth, or meshtastic nodes, during a strike/protest).

This takes me to another point from your reply:

I don’t like the idea of TOR and I2C because it’s known to hold disgusting and concerning stuff

It's worth mentioning that disgusting and concerning stuff isn't exclusive to Darknet, Clearnet also has such stuff, especially mainstream social media.

I mean, you're not wrong, Darknet is indeed used for that, not because it's inherent to Darknet, but because people who do concerning stuff also seek anonymity just like legitimate, well-intentioned privacy-concerned people, and Darknet happens to provide such anonymity for both uses in a double-edged sword manner.

Problem is: there's no way to differentiate two anonymous actors without breaking the very fundamentum of anonymity.

And this very argument you used unfortunately can be twisted by authorities to justify breaking anonymity and, by extension, privacy.

For authorities willing to control everyone's lives so badly, it just takes a small leap for the phrase to be reshaped and re-adapted as...

"private content/people's intimacies must be scanned/watched because they're known to hold disgusting and concerning stuff"

This is almost the argument behind EU's "Chat Control". And the majority of people end up joining this bandwagon unaware of where this bandwagon leads to: something that makes 1984 feel like a sugarcoated documentary.

Unfortunately, there's no easy solution regarding "disgusting and concerning stuff", but we should be really careful lest to throw the baby out with the dirty bathwater.

[–] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 3 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Just wait until they mandate embedding some sort of hardcoded device identification into LoRa devices.

I don't think I2P can hold anything. It's just anonymization through multiple hops, not a network within the network, no?

[–] mysticmartz@lemmy.world 1 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I don’t know. I’ve not used I2P before but I heard it was a decentralised internet just on a smaller scale like a WAN

[–] dubyakay@lemmy.ca 4 points 6 days ago

Reading about it further, I was completely wrong about it. I2P is entirely self contained and exit proxies are not really a thing.

Your concerns may be warranted.

[–] Zanathos@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago* (last edited 5 days ago) (2 children)

I've been having the same thoughts recently. Your mention of carrier pigeon and smoke signals now had me thinking that embedding data inside a birds sing like the recent jpeg someone tested could be our future soon.

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 1 points 4 days ago

How tf would you control that? Pigeons are only one-way already, you need to deliver those to the person you're communicating in advance. And songbirds would just be wherever they want, so seems pretty useless for info propagation.

[–] icelimit@lemmy.ml 2 points 5 days ago

Which species of bird was that? Time to raise them en masse and genetically breed them to sing more and also adapt to any environment on the planet to propagate. We need to widen coverage and bandwidth!

[–] Airowird@lemmy.blahaj.zone 15 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I hope they're dumb enough to just ban VPNs .... and completely halt half the corporations from working, because any WFH or remote accessing is built on VPNs.

Hell, it might just make using Zscaler illegal, one of the biggest cybersecurity tools in the corporate world!

[–] Duke_Nukem_1990@feddit.org 14 points 6 days ago

Easy fix: just sell a license to companies that want to use VPNs

[–] hellfire103@lemmy.ca 13 points 6 days ago (1 children)

I'm already using the Shadowsocks bridge in Mullvad. If things get more serious, I'll do some research and consider switching to Tor with either obfs4 or WebTunnel on Tails, and Snowflake on mobile.

[–] Zerush@lemmy.ml 5 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

Yes, this way they need 2 seconds more to track you, if they want. TOR is the most monitored Network by all security agencies and secret services, it was created by these. I2P is maybe somewhat more secure. Decentralized network is anyway the future, also P2P communications.

[–] hellfire103@lemmy.ca 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (2 children)

I2P is brilliant, yes, but I can't use it for clearnet sites.

Besides, in this case I would be using it purely for tunneling without detection by my ISP. Anonymity would be more of a bonus.

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 6 points 6 days ago

using it purely for tunneling without detection by my ISP. Anonymity would be more of a bonus.

I feel like people like you and me end up helping people who actually need anonymity - by creating a larger crowd :)

[–] Zerush@lemmy.ml 6 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago)

I2P certainly is not the clearnet, but if they continue to contaminate the clearnet with massive surveillance, there are not much more alternatives if you don't want to go back to communicate with Finger commands like in the 70th (still works, see also this)

[–] irotsoma@lemmy.blahaj.zone 9 points 6 days ago (2 children)

Just use a VPN outside the country or lease a low end VPS outside the country with decent bandwidth and host your own VPN endpoint. They can't force ISPs to block all of the VPN protocols in general or they'll lose a ton of businesses that rely on it for basic security of remote/traveling employees.

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 9 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They can’t force ISPs to block all of the VPN protocols in general

They very much can, I've seen it happen last year. The main protocols are VERY easily recognizable by DPI. However, there are obfuscation methods that can get through even Chinese Firewall, and they're constantly improving.

[–] Zanathos@lemmy.world 1 points 5 days ago (1 children)

You can't DPI a VPN tunnel because it will break the tunnel connection.

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 1 points 5 days ago

I meant that the DPI can easily detect the fact that the connection is indeed Wireguard or OpenVPN.

[–] thebardingreen@lemmy.starlightkel.xyz 5 points 6 days ago (1 children)

Even if they did, you can run VPNs over https, or make Tor disguise itself as other kinds of web traffic.

[–] Auli@lemmy.ca 1 points 5 days ago

And there are still ways to detect that.

[–] Zerush@lemmy.ml 7 points 6 days ago* (last edited 6 days ago) (1 children)

With the Tories soon you can't go online if your webcam is off. The UK has not longer something to do with the EU, it's more and more like the US. The UK always was very curious monitoring the nettraffic since a lot of years.

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 2 points 6 days ago (1 children)

can’t go online if your webcam is off

I think spoofing a webcam should be pretty easy.

[–] Zerush@lemmy.ml 3 points 5 days ago

Yes, but not so easy to synchronize your activity with the video.

https://github.com/fox3000foxy/foxyspoofers

[–] MonkderVierte@lemmy.zip 6 points 6 days ago

Note: if you live in the UK, your government sees you as their possession. Make sure that they know you are not.

[–] haych@feddit.uk 4 points 6 days ago (1 children)

They can try, they can't effectively stop it.

[–] Auli@lemmy.ca 0 points 5 days ago (2 children)

I mean they very well could. I mean it seems to be going this way anyway but separate networks. No global Internet just a bunch of networks each country controls.

[–] haych@feddit.uk 2 points 5 days ago

Given the reliance on US and other overseas companies, to completely isolate the UK in their own intranet would be next to impossible. Only North Korea has that kind of network.

[–] killerscene@lemmy.dbzer0.com 1 points 5 days ago

has anyone ever effectively stopped a program from being used?

[–] ISOmorph@feddit.org 25 points 1 week ago (5 children)

You live in a bubble my friend. Not everyone will move to tor. Not even close. Linux has reached 3% in the steam statistics recently. Remove the deck users and you'll be lucky if it hits 1%. Of those 1% not even everyone will be able to give up the regular web. I'm sure there will be a surge in alternative browsing prorocols, but not enough to change the status quo.

[–] EngineerGaming@retrolemmy.com 4 points 6 days ago

Most of the mainstream social media is blocked where I am. Good news: a huge part of even uneducated population does indeed learn to evade censorship. Bad news: they tend use the most easily-accessible services, which are sketchy, like reselling the users' IPs as residential proxies.

[–] Cethin@lemmy.zip 1 points 5 days ago

The Deck has done incredibly well, but they can't manufacture enough to make your numbers make sense. Also, last I saw, Linux streaming was around 5%.

However, yeah, most people won't know how to use these tools. There will probably be a ton of sites that pop up temporarily that don't have age verification. Any time they go after them it'll go down, and a new one will appear. They'll be sketchy sites, but that's how most people will avoid it if they want to avoid it.

[–] Jason2357@lemmy.ca 17 points 1 week ago

I found out students in my kids highschool were using VPNs to play roblox on the network (bypassing IT's block). They way they did it was 1. Search "VPN" in the app store or play store. 2. Install the first result.

That's probably a good model of what mass adoption of VPNs would look like.

  • my own kids got a tailscale app connecting to my headscale network in 10 minutes and me wiping my brow that I dodged a bullet.
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