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New York City schools have had a long history of phone restriction policies, with an outright ban in the early 2000s that was reversed about 10 years later. Individual schools, like the ones where Corletta and Leston teach, have had the freedom to implement their own restrictions.

That will change again in the new academic year as all schools in New York state will implement a bell-to-bell ban — one of the strictest among dozens of other states that have passed similar legislation — barring students from access to personal devices that can connect to the internet for the entire school day. Schools will be required to provide storage for the devices.

But with such new policies, many being implemented for the first time this school year or in effect for less than two years, no one knows what the perfect model looks like.

Researchers are moving cautiously as they grapple with uncertainty about the effectiveness of in-school phone bans on mental health. Data yields mixed results — and there’s growing a sentiment that more has to be done outside of schools to get kids off their phones and back into the world.

A recent Pew Research survey found that nearly three quarters of Americans support restrictive phone use in schools, up six percentage points since last year — but many are also unsure how far the bans should go. About 44% of respondents supported all day bans, with others split on whether students should have access to their phones between classes or at lunch.

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[–] fwygon@beehaw.org 1 points 1 day ago

Bell to Bell bans are fine in my honest opinion.

I do not acknowledge the mandate that all children must have constant access to their phones. Students who have a legitimate reason to carry their phones on their person at all times should be supported by their parents with a request to the school administration. School admins who receive such requests by parents should accept them with no questions asked, and only confiscate the device from the student if they are found to be misusing it or disrupting a class with it; no "If I see it; I snatch it" rules are to be allowed.

If schools have to issue "Phone-allowed Hall Passes" constantly; it disrupts class. If a student can be issued a personal pass that discloses they're allowed to keep their phone on them, per parental request for a legitimate reason, think medical reasons or reasons related to disability and note taking, there's less interruption if a student needs to make a critical phone call to get help.

I do believe schools should provide and encourage device storage. Students of appropriate ages should be allowed to access them in storage during break times. Teaching students the ability to self-disconnect from their mobile devices is important. This can be done efficiently and without cruelty. Responsible students with fewer phone infractions can be permitted to carry their phone more often or during wider hours of the day; while those who do misuse their phones or disrupt classes with them can be forced to keep their phones in storage from bell to bell as the law suggests.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

It is not to help the children.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 4 points 3 days ago

It's explicitly designed to hurt LGBT teens

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 8 points 4 days ago (5 children)

Leave the kids alone. They're already oppressed enough (the real reason their mental health is shit, phones are a scapegoat)

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 7 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Smartphones are the medium through which children are most oppressed through social media apps, poisoning their brains. Instagram and Facebook deliberately targeted young girls to make them feel like shit about their bodies, and engagement based algorithms (particularly YouTube) pumped harmful fascist ideas to young boys.

[–] Photuris@lemmy.ml 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)

You’re downvoted, but the data show this to be accurate.

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 3 points 4 days ago

Not really bothered by downvotes when, like you say, the data is pretty clear on the matter.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 2 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (1 children)

Then it is the social media companies that should go or fix their act, not phones in and of themselves.

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 5 points 4 days ago (2 children)

Sure, but the phones are the tools which are facilitating the harm and they're not necessary for a child to have in school. I'd even go far enough to say that no minor should have full unfettered access to a smartphone or the internet but this requires a level of involvement from parents.

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 5 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Kids get bullied in school. Kids feel alone. LGBTQ+ kids, neurodivergent kids, others. Phones connect them to support. Friends, like minded folks, etc. Some get support at home. Some don't.

Bans will harm a lot of kids. It's a sad and dangerous moral panic.

Parental involvement would be wonderful, but we should not punish all kids just because some parents aren't up to the task.

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 5 points 3 days ago (2 children)

I'm showing my age here - I was alone in school. I am neurodivergent and part of the LGBTQ+ community, both things that were not well understood or accepted when I was in school. The only brief pieces of support and connection I had was online needed to be on a PC as smartphones were simply not a thing.

Are you saying that children today must have instant and immediate access to friends and like minded people online during school hours? The children I know (i.e. children within my family and the children of friends) don't have smartphones at school and are able to wait until break times or after school to socialise but they're also not American; is this a uniquely American issue?

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

We have to acknowledge the times we're in. Many kids only access to non-face-to-face communication is their phone, no desktop, no laptop (or at least not one that isn't school-issued and locked down). Many kids don't have the support they need at home. Many kids don't have enough friends they can regularly meet face-to-face. Kids have less autonomy these days than the times when we grew up, too.

Consider if your PC was taken away because landline phones existed. Or if your landline phone was taken because you could use the postal service or pass notes in class. Etc.

So, no, please don't focus on the "instant and immediate" part of your question, and focus on the "access". In that sense, yes I am saying kids today must have access to friends and like-minded people. Banning phones in schools could take that access away for a significant portion of their waking hours. And for vulnerable kids who don't have steady home lives, that might be a disproportionate effect.

I do believe that we should adapt to prevent new technology from disrupting education, but I believe blanket bans have too great a potential for harm.

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Thank you for expanding more on this, it's gone a long way to helping me understand better.

I still believe that social media, as it currently exists, is something which is harmful to children for reasons I laid out previously but connection and support are important.

The perfect solution would be to disallow any kind of traditional social media outside of break times whilst bolstering better spaces for support and friendship both online and offline; the first part of that is definitely a symptom of the second but I'm not sure how to best solve that outside of direct community support and advocacy for such spaces.

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 2 points 2 days ago

I agree with this. I do think that traditional social media is often (maybe usually, for some platforms) harmful.

I think local community advocacy is vital, and I also think it's a "muscle" our society has allowed to wither.

I do think it's possible to create positive digital spaces as well. I remember the old Google Reader social networking features (few remember), but they created a really positive way to discuss things. And before that, there were a handful of great forums and irc channels I frequented.

I wonder if it's possible (legally and practically) to make a beehaw equivalent for 13+ kids.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Why are you so obsessed with taking away that access? That's not a good thing you know

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago

The thread lays out my opinion retty clearly; characterising a discussion as an obsession is being deliberately disingenuous.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 4 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (4 children)

and they're not necessary for a child to have in school.

We disagree, there are many reasons why they should be allowed, including in order to facilitate learning, and to stop abuse by providing evidence of it happening.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago

Yeah, good point. There's lots of phone camera footage that those in power would rather not have made, like cops chokeholding kids in the middle class

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Remember all the shitty stuff happening in classrooms that's been outed by phone cameras over the last 10+ years? Pepperidge Farms remembers...

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 3 points 4 days ago (1 children)
[–] chloyster@beehaw.org 7 points 4 days ago (1 children)

I want to respond to the unschooling bit here as I have some personal experience.

First I acknowledge that this is an anecdotal thing and there are likely examples of unschooling going way better. Second, I really do empathize and appreciate people wanting to not have kids grow up in a system that perpetuates toxic aspects of capitalism.

This being said, I think unschooling, while having a fine motive, can set up children to have extremely difficult lives. We have family friends who are unschooling their children and their knowledge and behavior is concerning to me. The eldest is 13 years old and doesn't know how to read, because she never had any interest in learning. I am fine if a child wants to be a creative. But learning to read and write I feel is too important a skill to leave out of any curriculum. I won't let that become just some tool that perpetuates capitalism.

Do I enjoy our capitalist society? No, and I want to work towards a better future in that regard. But I also think unschooling just tries to cover ears to the reality we live in. I think it's important to teach children to criticize the systems we are in. But if a child grows up wanting to be a creative, but can't read, write, do simple arithmetic, all sorts of skills that one would need to just survive in a capitalist dominated world... Like what's the point. Traditional school does not have to be nefarious. I grew up in Seattle public schools and was taught to criticize these systems despite being a cog in it at the time.

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 3 points 4 days ago* (last edited 4 days ago) (2 children)

We did not want to be in school and ran away from it all the time. It was a terrible, awful experience. Yet we did have a thirst for learning just not in a rigidly defined system where we could only fail or pass, where hierarchy was the main thing going on, where teacher's egos could not take being told they were wrong. Where we were bullied and stressed all the time.

We did not do well in school but thrived outside of it as far as learning was concerned.

We hope you can appreciate why we push so strongly for unschooling or any other system that is not the terrible experience we were forced into, and we know many still are as well, to this very day.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago

I was abused (bullying is a cutesy term to.avoid calling it what it really is) in school and still have social anxiety from it. It's only "a good place for socialization" because all the other ones are banned being banned (see OP's post) or are engineered out of the built environment. In high school I learned as much out of class as I did in, and the more valuable half too.

[–] chloyster@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

I'm sorry y'all had a bad experience in traditional school. But I still think a healthily funded well curriculumed public school system can be a great thing. I recently had my 10 year high school reunion and it was a really awesome time with a bunch of smart thinkers and kind souls. Ofc that's not the experience for everyone, but a lot of people have great experiences in school. I mean I was also bullied in school but overall am very happy I had my public school experience. I'm sure unschooling can go well too. We can trade anecdotes all day though. I can't say for sure that unschooling is actually bad and public schools are actually good. What I do know is I'm not ready to throw away the public school system just yet

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

What we are saying is that it needs to exist for reasons other than teaching to a test or to get a job, we agree it shouldn't be thrown away but it needs to be massively different and way less abusive.

[–] chloyster@beehaw.org 3 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Oh yeah I for sure agree with that. Standardized tests are fucking stupid. There are issues with the way it's set up and think it can and should be changed and overhauled. I don't think giving youth some direction on things to learn is bad but it for sure right now drives kids to a certain capitalistic end goal. Which I also still think isn't totally un-useful in this fucked up system we find ourselves in (though it can be done kinder). Give kids the tools to understand why the system is fucked up while also gentally preparing them to work through it and maybe try and change it for the better.

I think we're mostly on the same page. I do sometimes get worried about homeschool stuff as this perpetuation of the hyper individualistic nature of the United States (where I live) but there are some things a traditional school system can learn from it. Thanks for talking through it with me though c:

[–] SweetCitrusBuzz@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago

Yes, we agree on that.

Oh, we are well aware how homeschooling and unschooling can go wrong, especially in such a system, we are not fans of it and so not support abuse perpetuated in any education, public, home, or otherwise.

We are against it being for religious reasons or conspiracy reasons, we just want people to be able to choose what truly works for them, public school does not work for everyone currently and those who it does not work for should not be forced into it.

Those who it does work for still deserve better than what is avaliable currently though.

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[–] megopie@beehaw.org 4 points 4 days ago

Kids are being harmed, but so is everyone else.

We need to stop acting as if there is some bandaid fixes or regulations that can adress these issues.

Phones in general need to be refocused on their utility, and social media specifically needs to be rebuilt as a public services, and the notion of it as a for profit enterprise needs to be buried six feet under.

[–] Catoblepas@piefed.blahaj.zone 6 points 4 days ago (4 children)

In this age of school shooters I don’t know that I’d feel comfortable sending my hypothetical kid to school without a phone, or knowing it wouldn’t be allowed to be on them provided they kept it away and silent.

Definitely confiscate it if it’s out when it shouldn’t be, but when phones can be how people have access to money, bus passes, ID, etc then it seems unreasonable to not expect kids to learn how to be responsible about having it with them. I don’t want to deal with a bunch of 18 year olds that don’t know how to use a phone appropriately in the workplace.

[–] fwygon@beehaw.org 2 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

It's been my experience that allowing school teachers and admins to confiscate phones on sight is generally a bad idea. They tend to get power-trippy.

The only time it's really appropriate to take a phone away is when there is a reasonably substantial disruption to the class. Not when a student is harmlessly using the device in the hallway, nor when the student is briefly checking the device, but is otherwise engaged normally with the education being provided.

I've seen some schools take and hold phones until the parent retrieves them; which is theft of personal property.

Should the student be forced to store the phone away securely if they're using it at an incorrect time/place? Absolutely yes. But they should also be guaranteed to be able to retrieve it after the final bell or when they go to leave campus with no questions asked. Yeah that does mean that maybe the principal/school officer has to walk you to the phone storage area/locker to enforce the rule. That's fine. Schools have the right to punish the breach of their rules, within reason.

[–] Deyis@beehaw.org 5 points 4 days ago (2 children)

From the outside looking in, it's funny in a sick and twisted way that legislators are looking to ban phones from schools because they're dangerous but do nothing about guns.

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[–] blindsight@beehaw.org 4 points 4 days ago (3 children)

So glad to hear that more districts are following the evidence on the toxicity of cell phones on youth mental health. As a former secondary teacher, I've been following this very closely, and it's good to see politicians actually doing the right thing in increasing numbers globally, finally. If only we could get more parents on board with banning social media access for their children (until age ~16) in the first place!!

To be clear, there's very little evidence that having dumb phones are a problem. Phone calls are great, and simple SMS/MMS texting is largely used by students effectively for communication and to build connections. And, obviously, are more than sufficient for parents to keep in contact with their children.

The problem is smart phones, especially "social media" apps, but, more generally, with addictive and deceptive dark patterns in most popular apps and, increasingly, websites.

For example, within minutes with a fresh account on TikTok, Instagram, or SnapChat shorts, teenage girls will be shown content promoting self harm/suicide and encouraging disordered eating. Teenage boys will be shown misogynistic "manosphere" and racist content just as quickly. It's incredibly toxic.

I've already written too much for an Internet comment, but if you want to learn more, Jonathan Haidt's "The Anxious Generation" is a great, recent popular press book that explains this in detail. The only big criticism I've heard is that he does the Malcolm Gladwell thing where he jumps a bit farther than the evidence supports, but the book is otherwise very sound, well explained, and well researched. And, even if his conclusions aren't the ideal solution (as sorted by evidence), it's still grounded in reality and much better than the status quo, so I think this criticism is overstated.

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 5 points 4 days ago (2 children)

I found The Anxious Generation to have useful information presented with unfounded conclusions. No causal link established, written to drive this moral panic.

Queer and neurodivergent kids cut off from their only source of friendship and hope are going to suffer for that book, and it pains me.

[–] blindsight@beehaw.org 4 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Non-algorithmic websites aren't a problem in the same way and can be accessed from a home computer or tablet. Chat rooms and web forums are generally really wholesome spaces, at least if they're moderated. There are lots of amazing spaces for 2SLGBTQ+ and neurospicy youth to connect outside of for-profit, maximize-engagement, addiction services.

Part of the reason to ban smart phones is notification anxiety, btw. The constant barrage of notifications scoring youth on their value as a person ("likes") is addictive and incredibly toxic. Removing constant distraction from notifications in their pockets at all times alone is a huge benefit, and there is strong research supporting that. (Like the study that showed even having a switched off phone in the room impacts the ability to focus, with increasing effects of the phone is in their pocket but off, increasing again if it's on but silent).

I strongly, vehemently reject that limiting smart phone access will hurt 2SLGBTQ+ and neurospicy kiddos from finding connection as there are many better ways of accessing safer online spaces than what phone apps. (My favourite example is the "autism" Minecraft server moderated by dads of autistic kiddos—what an amazing, wholesome project!)

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago (3 children)

Actual LGBT and neurodiverse people disagree with you. There's a plot afoot to isolate and censor them and you're helping them. Why are you helping them and their manufactured moral panic?

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 1 points 3 days ago (2 children)

Actual LGBT and neurodiverse people disagree with you.

let's not invoke monoliths here, i am both and i think there are quite a lot of defensible arguments for restricting phones in the specific context of a learning environment--not least of which is that it's hardly "censorship" or "isolation"[^1] to ask them to just not use a phone for roughly 8 hours of the 24 hours in any given day.

[^1]: social media is arguably far more alienating and inhuman on average to children and young adults than it is liberating

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

There are indeed reasonable restrictions, like "no phones in class" and so on. Blanket bans are going to cause lots of issues, and for some kids (generally the ones who are already the most bullied and vulnerable), will cause more harm than good.

[–] alyaza@beehaw.org 1 points 3 days ago (1 children)

Blanket bans are going to cause lots of issues, and for some kids (generally the ones who are already the most bullied and vulnerable), will cause more harm than good.

name one issue that a blanket ban will cause "more harm than good" on.

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 1 points 2 days ago

A neurodivergent kid with few friends at school, who doesn't learn well in a public school environment, who has an authoritarian home life might rely on their phone to find connection.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago (1 children)

It's not a coincidence this is happening alongside age verification and outright bans. It's all one big manufactured moral panic to isolate a vulnerable population I won't give an once because people like you won't stop taking. School attendance is also literally legally mandatory so how you're treated there matters.

You're also conflating certain corpo slop apps with literally any use of any mobile device, which is a common slight of hand that doesn't get called out enough

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[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 1 points 3 days ago

I think you raise a lot of good points about individual services, and so on. I love when kids are shown these positive resources and given the ability to interact in healthy spaces both offline and on.

The issue with the current authoritarian wave of smartphone/social media bans, though, is that (in almost every single case) they aren't providing new support for kids. They aren't filling the gap in community they're ripping away. Some kids don't have as big a level of support from the adults in their life as you highlight. A blanket ban on smartphones will disproportionately affect the vulnerable kids.

There are more nuanced ways to prevent smartphone disruption, but blanket bans are going to cause a lot of harm.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago

It's the only reason I'm still alive, as someone who was both. And hurting people like me is the goal. Psycho Christian abusers want total isolation and people like OP want to give it to them based off of lies by child abusers blaming everyone else for their misdeeds

[–] megopie@beehaw.org 4 points 4 days ago (3 children)

the core issue here is not that the modern internet and social media landscape is bad for kids, it’s that it is bad in general, for everyone! Kids are just a vulnerable population that it is easy to point to and limit access for.

We need to reject the notion that this is a business, and accept that digital spaces are a public services that shouldn’t be designed around maximizing user engagement and profitability.

Delaying when we allow large companies to destroy people’s minds with dark patterns doesn’t solve the core issues. There’s no good way to regulate this, the core failure is the nature of these services as for profit companies with no incentive but to design manipulative and addictive systems, and things won’t get better until that is dealt with.

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[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 4 points 4 days ago (3 children)

Haidt is a hack, and specific apps sucking obscures the sinister true motives behind this moral panic

[–] ranandtoldthat@beehaw.org 4 points 4 days ago (1 children)

Agreed. Kids are going to suffer, like for real suffer, as we take away their lifelines and act like we've solved a problem.

[–] fluffykittycat@slrpnk.net 2 points 3 days ago

The "problem" they're trying to solve is "LGBT kids aren't killing themselves enough"

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