this post was submitted on 07 Oct 2025
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"Bro this is literally slavery 😭" - Slaveowning Founding Fathers (media.piefed.social)
submitted 21 hours ago by PugJesus@piefed.social to c/historymemes@piefed.social
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[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 23 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago) (1 children)

Explanation: During the American Revolution, and in the lead-up to it, the American colonists' position wherein American colonists were denied representation in the British government was often compared (by said colonists) to slavery.

The thing is, uh, many of them were literal slavers themselves, running, for that matter, one of the worst systems of slavery in human history at that - the European instituted form of chattel slavery in the Americas. No mean feat, considering the already-low bar for slavery as a system.

Of the Founding Fathers as they're generally recognized, four of the seven became abolitionists, either before or during the American Revolution (John Jay, Ben Franklin, Alexander Hamilton, John Adams). One turned against slavery as an institution, but did not come out publicly in favor of abolition before his death (Washington). One had negative feelings on slavery, but also negative feelings on Black people and the idea of not living in ridiculous luxury (Jefferson). One was an unrepentant slaver (Madison).

[–] Rhaedas@fedia.io 10 points 20 hours ago (4 children)

History is full of great triumphs alongside great atrocities. From a 21st century viewpoint, their hypocrisy is both terrible and obvious. Does that downplay or nullify the major achievements that were started and then built on, even while they were hypocrites?

Can't wait to hear how our society is judged in a few centuries. I mean we could probably do some of that now, and even begin to improve if we wanted.

I'm never sure of what the goal is in this topic. If it's educational and a reminder that we should always question our actions and morality, that's fine. But it's often phrased in a way to try and discredit the Founders, which seems dishonest.

There's a scene in the series John Adams where Franklin and Adams are reading over Jefferson's draft of the DoI, and the topic of emancipation is brought up. Franklin suggests that while it's an important topic to be raised eventually, trying to wrap it in with seeking independence from Britain would defeat the purpose of creating the needed solidarity among the colonies (as some were far more dependent and pro-slavery). I'm sure it's dramatized, but might be based on some writings of theirs.

We ought to discuss how often the ball of freedom for every person was dropped over time, from that period to the Civil War/Reconstruction to Jim Crow and even still now. We've never gotten past it fully as a nation, and seem to be regressing (again). A mention again on how we're going to be looked at by our descendants for what we're doing right now, it's not a great image in a lot of ways.

[–] Jack@lemmy.ca 2 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago) (1 children)

Can’t wait to hear how our society is judged in a few centuries.

  1. Probably revolted at human overpopulation, the biggest and root cause of, amongst other things:

  2. factory farming and industrial fishing, which slowly tortures to death 2-6 trillion fish every year, and enslaves 2-4 trillion animals (mostly fish and chickens) in torturous conditions every year;

  3. mass-extinction causing anthropogenic climate-change;

[–] Rhaedas@fedia.io 1 points 5 hours ago

#2 and #3 circle back to #1 really, and #1 is thanks to advances in medicine but also hugely by the invention of fertilizer based on... petroleum. New time traveler quest unlocked: go back to the Carboniferous period and unleash microbes to decay things faster.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 5 points 11 hours ago (1 children)

I’m never sure of what the goal is in this topic. If it’s educational and a reminder that we should always question our actions and morality, that’s fine. But it’s often phrased in a way to try and discredit the Founders, which seems dishonest.

I mean, I noted that over half the Founding Fathers were outright abolitionists, and that Washington was of a similar thinking.

The hypocrisy is hard to deny for the slave-owners, however (Washington included), and Jefferson and Madison were unambiguously pieces of shit for their positions on slavery in a time when slavery was becoming increasingly contentious.

[–] Rhaedas@fedia.io 3 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Abolitionism was gaining traction, and it would have been optimistically great if it had taken hold with a new country and leaders spearheading that change. However I would note that while the fight against slavery was growing then, look where we are with inherent racism that's stemmed from that divide, STILL, even after all the strife and war and political fighting.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

Honestly, if the cotton gin had been invented just 10-20 years later, we might have ended up with a very different America.

[–] Rhaedas@fedia.io 2 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

That sparked a memory of someone's video or something that actually explored that alternative history, and the conclusion was it wouldn't have changed the slavery part, just how they were used. I think it was AlternativeHistoryHub?

Now maybe have a society that was already anti-slavery before colonization would have worked, but then you have to go back and change even more stuff before they got here.

[–] PugJesus@piefed.social 1 points 7 hours ago (1 children)

The thing is, the reason why slavery died in the North and not the South was not exclusively moral, but largely economic - slavery had ceased to be economically viable in the production of most agricultural work. The cotton gin made cotton, a very labor-intensive crop, immensely more profitable, and you see a sharp reversal in the lukewarm growth of abolitionism in the early US South compared with the post-1800 US South, to the point where, by the 1830s, slavery was more entrenched in the South, both economically and philosophically, than it was 40 years before.

[–] Rhaedas@fedia.io 1 points 6 hours ago

The whole subject of colonial economics and such is very complex, so I'll just say that your point does sound valid, I just don't know if that alone would be enough. But one thing you did raise, how morality wasn't the main factor... so really most everyone back then were assholes when it came to different races. Which supports my point that overcoming that would take far more than a few leaders casting away their slaves, and like I said, we still have racism issues in the damn 21st century where things ought to be so much better logically.

Maybe humans just suck collectively.

[–] Sergio@piefed.social 3 points 17 hours ago (1 children)

I get what you're saying, but... it's hard to get over the fact that Jefferson owned slaves, raped at least one of them, then enslaved the kids that resulted. Just saying that nobody's perfect doesn't really help us understand how someone could enslave their own kids.

I’m never sure of what the goal is in this topic.

This is a valid concern. My answer is: I think that the complexities and ambiguities of real history are far more instructive than the good/bad dichotomies of simplified legends. The American revolutionaries were bad people in a lot of ways, but they still managed to achieve something impressive. Therefore we, who are also deeply flawed, can also aspire to do good things.

[–] Rhaedas@fedia.io 2 points 7 hours ago

Yeah, I tried not to frame it as we should forgive the immoral actions just because they did some good things. I think we can multitask and recognize both aspects of the person.

[–] N0t_5ure@lemmy.world 3 points 20 hours ago

How dare you give a subtle, nuanced, accurate take on history!

[–] minorkeys@lemmy.world 10 points 21 hours ago

Literally corporations complaining about regulations while expanding their control of employee's lives.

[–] compulsory@crust.piefed.social 2 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago) (1 children)

Bro, it's so cool that they compromised and met both sides needs. We need more of that today, instead the loony lefties are trying to push for their extremist shit.

Imagine how much worse it would have been for slaves in the US if they were still under British rule? It's a good thing they were able to set aside their problems and only focus on defeating the British. That allowed them to peacefully work it out as soon as the war was over and avoided any problems with ending slavery.

[–] anonymous111@lemmy.world 6 points 15 hours ago (1 children)
[–] scintilla@crust.piefed.social 2 points 3 hours ago (1 children)

I'm 90% sure they are being sarcastic and talking about how people keep saying people on the left should just focus on getting rid of trump like that itself would solve the things that caused him to be elected.

[–] anonymous111@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

Not sure I follow. The British Empire banned slavery before the USA. So, by not being in the British empire slavery existed for longer in the USA than it would have if America remained under British rule.