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I wonder why religious conservatives are mostly synonymous with capitalism supporters ? I mean arent most religions inherently socialistic ? What makes conservatives support capitalism , despite not being among the rich?

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[-] BumpingFuglies@lemmy.zip 158 points 1 year ago

Fox News. Televangelists. Trump.

Religion can be a very positive tool to bring communities together and support one another, but capitalism means exploitation, and nothing's easier to exploit than blind faith.

[-] jungekatz@lemm.ee 34 points 1 year ago

I wonder why would a person keep a rich persons interest over their own ? Free or affordable healthcare and college would be such a great help , and while the planet can support food and housing for all , many are deliberately kept hungry and homeless and that is rooted in corporate greed most of the times . Gulliblity at another level!

[-] 007v2@lemmy.world 38 points 1 year ago

The guise that they will someday be the one with the boot, they don’t wanna miss their chance be be the very boot they lick. Propaganda is a powerful tool.

[-] jungekatz@lemm.ee 13 points 1 year ago

I mean I know people who think that elon is making them rich coz their tesla shares jumped, and at the same time they dont want college to be affordable because they paid for it in whole ( tho these ppl are mostly boomers and older gen)

[-] dmonzel@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

I wonder why would a person keep a rich persons interest over their own ?

There's no such thing as a poor Republican voter, just a temporarily embarrassed millionaire.

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[-] dandroid@dandroid.app 27 points 1 year ago

I agree with the other two. But I think it's disingenuous to say Trump, because this behavior has existed since long before Trump was relevant in politics.

[-] BumpingFuglies@lemmy.zip 15 points 1 year ago

True. He's more a symptom than a cause. He certainly isn't helping.

[-] key@lemmy.keychat.org 5 points 1 year ago

It also existed since long before Fox News and even Televangelists

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[-] jballs@sh.itjust.works 13 points 1 year ago

While I 100% agree with you, I think you listed the symptoms rather than the root cause. Religious people have been supporting the Republican party well... religiously since as long as I can remember, well before Trump and Fox News.

I think it's something that the Republican party has specifically built their messaging around and then those things have grown out of it as a result. Someone posted a good article the other day about how politicians supporting segregation were able to manufacture a wedge issue (abortion) in the 70s to capture the religious vote, who didn't see it as a religious issue until they were basically told it was.

[-] krayj@sh.itjust.works 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Religion has been sucking the teet of conservative politics for a LOT longer than Fox News, Televangelist, and Trump have been around.

It goes far deeper and is way more fundamental than those things.

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[-] the_dopamine_fiend@lemmy.world 31 points 1 year ago
[-] jungekatz@lemm.ee 11 points 1 year ago

Basically karma ? So do they believe that their actions will reap them benefits ? While they want to discrimiate people on basis of race and sexuality ?

[-] the_dopamine_fiend@lemmy.world 18 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

There's an authoritarian theme to it all. They believe their god to be all-powerful and all-just. Therefore, that god must reward good actions and punish bad ones. The reward that our global society seems to run the most on is money. Therefore, any actions that gain you a lot of money must be good actions, thereby justifying the means of capitalism.

Prosperity theology, they call it.

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[-] themeatbridge@lemmy.world 25 points 1 year ago

Because "conservative" isn't an ideology, it's a mindset. It's based on the idea that the in-group is good, not because of what they believe but because of who they are. So because they are good, whatever they want is good. It does not matter if their wants are contradictory or hypocritical or irrational in any way. They define the parameters for what is worth preserving, and then anyone who wants to stop them is part of the out-group and therefore bad. The out-group is not bad because they hold bad positions. The out-group could change their positions, and they would still be bad becauae it is part of their identity.

Conservatives also do not require any justification for their wants, but having a religious justification is like catnip. Because of the conservative mindset, they have no problem picking and choosing the religious beliefs that support what they want while ignoring or attacking the ones that don't.

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[-] Adderbox76@lemmy.ca 23 points 1 year ago

Because they're generally religious in name only. To them, religion is a tool to be used to get ahead. Networking through your church, appealing to other religious people in order to get votes, etc... etc...

[-] Stinkywinks@lemmy.world 22 points 1 year ago

Because they only use the Bible to pretend to be more holy than everyone else. It's just a moral license, they don't actually believe in the teachings of Jesus. They want to be in a holy club where everyone on the outside is inferior.

[-] tastysnacks@programming.dev 9 points 1 year ago

Its like libertarianism in America. They look at it like you can do anything you want. But the ignore the "not affecting anybody else" part of it.

[-] Stinkywinks@lemmy.world 5 points 1 year ago

And expect corporations not to shit in your water

Success = hard work.

Hard work = not lazy.

Not lazy = good.

Rich / successful people = good people (unless they're involved in godless entertainment, of course)

Not successful = not working hard enough.

Not working hard enough = lazy.

Lazy = bad.

Poor / unsuccessful people = bad people

They do not think hard enough to see nuance. They just don't.

An old friend of mine once ranted to me about how poor women will keep popping out babies to get free government money & food. Like.... bitch, do you know how actually difficult it is to get """free money""" from the government? Are you seriously mad that children are being fed? Do you think that poor people fund their "lavish lifestyles" off government funds? BITCH, POOR PEOPLE DON'T DO THAT!!! RICH PEOPLE DO!!!!

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[-] loaExMachina@sh.itjust.works 20 points 1 year ago

I think what leads one to hold onto their religion and to support the social status quo are the same things: Attachement to what is familiar and reassuring and rejection of what is new and scary. Conservatives often try to appropriate religion to appear as the side of comfy, reassuring tradition, and represent progressives as the side of scary disrupters.

[-] SpunkyBarnes@geddit.social 20 points 1 year ago

In a term? Dominion mentality. Add a little master/servant hierarchy, a pinch of patriarchy and stir well.

[-] RecursiveParadox@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

...with a heavy does of the Property Gospel to keep the plebs in line.

[-] cloudless@feddit.uk 20 points 1 year ago

They don't really support capitalism. They are simply submissive to authorities and support whatever their leaders say.

[-] Gelcube69@reddthat.com 5 points 1 year ago

Have you considered that they happened to just be born into the best country in the world, the one true religion, and it's everyone else's job to step in line?

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[-] Bartsbigbugbag@lemmy.ml 16 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

I didn’t check all of the comments, but most of the ones I saw were really poor jokes or just plain wrong. The reason that religion is so tied into conservatism goes back to Nixon, and the attempts made by Roger Ailes and others, including Ronald Reagan, to make sure a right wing president could never be held accountable again. This included a meeting with Reagan and hundreds of pastors in which they literally trained the pastors on how to convert their congregations to the rights hateful rhetoric, a big part of which was the demonization of abortion and the lionization of “the free market”. They’ve since been exporting this hateful rhetoric around the world by force and through traditional missionary style missions.

[-] ssboomman@lemm.ee 9 points 1 year ago

While I don’t doubt this happened, this isn’t the first real link between capitalism and religion, specifically Christianity. It can actually go way further back, like to the trans-Atlantic slave trade. Capitalism was beginning to take on its early forms, and doing what capitalism does best, which is reinforcing currently existing social hierarchies. When European ‘ancient farmers’ came over to the americas they needed labor, and ended up using Africans. Problem was, under English common law you weren’t supposed to own christian slaves. (Some slaves actually used this defense to escape slavery see Elizabeth key), and the region where slavery first popped off was Angola which was a largely christian country, so the colonies detached themselves from English comon law (which was one of the many stepping stones leading up to the American revolution) and changes various rules so that they could. That way they can keep holding slaves while using their religion to justify what they were doing. Religion was used to bolster capitalism, capitalism made religions people rich.

Abrahamic religions (as are most organized religions) are insanely heiarchical. Like we said before, capitalism has a habit of reinforcing those social heiarchies, so it’s not really that surprising that there a huge overlap there. Just like there’s a huge overlap between billionaires and capitalism supporters, or landlords and anti-union support.

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[-] cerevant@lemmy.world 15 points 1 year ago

The Protestant Work Ethic equated Christian values with material success.

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[-] DonnieDarkmode@lemm.ee 14 points 1 year ago

An important thing to keep in mind is that the practice of religion changes over time alongside culture, and is itself a part of culture. The Christianity of people living in places like Judea and Anatolia in the 1st century CE differs from the Christianity of, say, the Teutonic (not up on my post-Roman ethnicities, so might not be using the right term) tribes of Western Europe in the 6th century. This again differs from the Christianity of indigenous peoples in the Americas post-Columbus. In all these cases, these people had pre-existing cultural and religious beliefs which Christianity syncretised with instead of wholly replacing.

The Bible has been used to endorse slavery as well as oppose it, to condone violence and warfare as well as serve as the basis for radical non-violence. It is not “univocal”, because the various people who wrote and compiled it had their own beliefs and perspectives.

The various sects of Christianity differ in their values, beliefs, and even canon literature, and that’s before you get into Christianity as cultural practice rather than strict religion. Like all religions, Christianity is wonderfully human, encompassing our wide range of idiosyncrasies and contradictions, and that even includes people who don’t read the damn book! So yes, you’re going to find commonly accepted “Christian” practices which seem to clearly contradict the doctrine, but the doctrine contradicts itself, and serves people just as much as people should ostensibly serve it. The conception of Christianity as a unified religion, with 1 canon and 1 accepted interpretation, has never been accurate.

FWIW Early Christians did practice communal living and sharing of property (the New Testament tells us as much), and you can still see these things in practice today, albeit rarely. I also wouldn’t use modern terms like socialism to describe that sort of thing, because the economic order and class structures which Socialism and Communism are a response to literally did not exist at the time.

[-] Gsus4@feddit.nl 11 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Because it's remarkably similar in form:

"each one takes care of himself and god takes care of all"

Vs

"Everybody pursues their own gain and the market takes care of everything"

PS: "the lord works in mysterious ways" Vs "the market can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent"

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1999/03/the-market-as-god/306397/

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[-] Smokeydope@lemmy.world 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Hypocritical self interest I think. Many people who claim to be Christians don't understand or care about the teachings of Christ. Religion is used by these people more as a social boon than a means of philosophical/spiritual teachings.

Check out this comic strip 'the gospel of supply side Jesus' to understand the version of Christ they truly worship

https://imgur.com/gallery/bCqRp

[-] jungekatz@lemmy.world 6 points 1 year ago

Just read a news that evangelicals called christs teachings as weak !

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[-] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Important to add that it's really just in the US that this tie exists between religious conservatives (especially evangelicals) and capitalism. In many other parts of the world, religious people are more leftwing, especially to take care of the weakest among us.

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[-] misk@lemm.ee 10 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Religion is not the goal of conservatives, it's a tool to preserve hierarchy in the society. Capitalism is another tool that achieves that.

The people that aren't wealthy but are conservative benefit from hierarchy enforced by religion. It ensures that they're not on the bottom of society - that place is intended for various minorities.

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[-] motorheadkusanagi@lemmy.world 9 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

They do it because of capitalism's decentralized properties.

First, they fear a government having power over them. This can seem irrational, but they interpreted WW2 as 1.) proof that a government can be used to wipe out people it disagrees with, and 2.) that absolute sovereignty in the hands of man made institutions is a thread to god as the supreme sovereign.

The decentralization of capitalism, and democracy, gives them the ability to disconnect as much as possible from anything they dont agree with. This is why they talk about freedom while doing hateful things in the name of their lord. Theyre economically free (to be hateful).

A lot of this mentality really starts after WW2. First the war is won. Then they push to make America as christian as possible. About 50% of US citizens claimed to be christian in 1950, but it is 90% by the 1970's. In God We Trust is put on US money and added to the national anthem in the 50's. This is important because the US is starting to fight the cold war against atheistic communists. The power of capitalism becomes part of a global propaganda effort to demonstrate the weakness of the godless systems. The republicans align themselves with christianity, locking it in with Reagan's election in 1980, and now capitalism and christianity are intertwined and propagandized to the point of not resembling the original ideas anymore. Give that 44 years, and here we are.

On Christian Soverignty, written by an influential christian just after WW2 https://providencemag.com/2020/07/christian-view-sovereignty/

[-] Copernican@lemmy.world 8 points 1 year ago* (last edited 1 year ago)

Max Weber's "The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism" goes into how protestantism cradled capitalist growth. But I think it's a bit heavy handed to say folks support capitalist ideology. You don't really support ideology. The ideology is what supports capitalism or is capitalism itself. But Protestantism is generally has individualistic beliefs. No longer does the clergy intermediate relation to God. Protestants believe individuals have a personal and individual relation to god. This sense of individualism can overlap with capitalist mentalities of individual success and profit.

But I think your use of ideology is too vague and understanding of religion is too generalized. You really need to talk about particulars of specific religious beliefs and particulars of specific attitudes towards capitalism. There's not much to really comment on with such broad and vague brushstrokes.

[-] quadropiss@lemmy.world 7 points 1 year ago

Plain brainwashing. They're used to being coerced into believing stuff by fear mongering

[-] mojo@lemm.ee 7 points 1 year ago

Conservatism is based on ignorance. They don't even know what capitalism means.

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[-] PerCarita@discuss.tchncs.de 6 points 1 year ago

This is about the Americas, yes? I believe its original roots was in Calvinism, that is, the brand of Christianity in the reformation era that was brought over to the Americas by early European settlers/colonisers as proposed by the theologian John Calvin. It's something about how God chose its people and gave them the grace of worldly wealth. Wealth is good because it comes from God, so it follows, that poverty is due to a lack of God's grace = immorality (laziness, lack of personal qualities, wickedness).

I think I read about this in a book about US American economy a couple of years ago, but I can't remember which book it was.

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[-] Laticauda@lemmy.ca 6 points 1 year ago

Because capitalism helps enforce a hierarchy, and conservative L's love hierarchies. Religion is just another tool used for this since it generally preaches obedience with a consequence for not following the right "rules". Most religion has nuance to that aspect, but if you erase the nuance it's an effective tool for enforcing those hierarchies those people love so much.

[-] TheFogan@programming.dev 6 points 1 year ago

I'd assume same reason most politicians are. In a capitalist society, those that pool the most money will tend to gain the most power and influence. So the churches that talk to the rich man and say "of course god is blessing you because you are such a good person" get more money, and thus more influence, than the churches that pay attention to the "It's harder for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven". "Succesful" religious leaders become the ones to teach the next generation of religious leaders. Causing more drift into the same idea.

Then of course the pro-corporate candidates also do really good virtue signaling. Because when the religious leaders do not want to focus on the Rich, they still need a bad guy to rally against, and since nobody needs the church to tell them murderers and thieves are bad... the church takes a more strong stand against things that are accepted by society that they can consider against their faith. (abortion, LGBT etc...)

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this post was submitted on 11 Aug 2023
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