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Sweden officially joins NATO (www.nato.int)

submitted 9 months ago by zephyreks@lemmy.ml to c/worldnews@lemmy.ml

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[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 70 points 9 months ago

[removed by mod]

[-] CanadaPlus@lemmy.sdf.org 32 points 9 months ago

I blame the fact they built all these institutions with no clause to expel members, or which require total unanimity to do so. They really bought in to the whole "end of history" thing, I guess.

[-] troyunrau@lemmy.ca 22 points 9 months ago

Yeah, this is an interesting element. Historically, allowing all members a veto, while also having no way to expel a member, means that any such institution is liable to outside meddling. The classic example is the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberum_veto -- in the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth, any noble could veto anything. So all it took was buying a few nobles and it shattered.

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[-] ComradeChairmanKGB@lemmygrad.ml 12 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

We (the western world) really needs to deal with Orban eventually.

Incredible display of chauvinism. Cause it's worked out so well every other time you westoids have stepped in to decide another countries leadership for them. Stfu and stay home before you collapse yet another nation and start the slave trade there.

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[-] False@lemmy.world 53 points 9 months ago

Rad

[-] lauha@lemmy.one 29 points 9 months ago

Russia uses RadAway

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[-] negativenull@lemmy.world 35 points 9 months ago

Thanks ~~Obama~~ Putin!

[-] BombOmOm@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago

Reignited the West's arms industry as well! We had gotten complacent until Putin started the largest war in Europe since WWII.

[-] SevenOfWine@startrek.website 28 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Do you know why NATO annexed Sweden?

[-] Omega_Haxors@lemmy.ml 12 points 9 months ago

startrek website continuing to be the highest quality instance

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[-] dangblingus@lemmy.dbzer0.com 25 points 9 months ago

Guys will see this and say "hell yea"

[-] can@sh.itjust.works 25 points 9 months ago

hell yea

[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 18 points 9 months ago

I don't like the expansion of NATO, but due to Russia's recent imperialism, Sweden's and Finland's reactions are completely reasonable. A much healthier alternative would have been actually advancing towards an integrated European defense system involving EU members, with a door open to certain neighbours such as Norway, but it's pretty hard to do that when the political groups that could actually promote that alternative are schizophrenically tolerating positions such as "I'm a pacifist, so I'm advocating for my own country's disarmament despite my neighbours starting wars very recently" and "if Ukraine didn't want to get invaded, they shouldn't have sought guarantees against Russian aggression from third countries".

[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip 6 points 9 months ago

I think Europeans in general psychologically still feel themselves weak without NATO, unable to fill the needs of their own defense.

I've been reading about 1st Indochina war yesterday, so - emotionally biased.

[-] SuddenDownpour@sh.itjust.works 25 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

EU's population: 448 million

EU GDP: 19 trillion dollars

Russia's population: 143 million

Russia's GDP: 1,78 trillion dollars

Simplifying a bit here (I'm obviously taking Morocco and Belarus for granted, assuming that Turkey wouldn't attack Greece, and so on), but it's pretty much a "gotta get our shit together" situation, because there's no reason why we should depend on the US for defense, or anything else.

[-] paholg@lemm.ee 11 points 9 months ago

I assume you meant trillion and not million for those gdp figures? Even then, they're low.

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[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.zip 7 points 9 months ago

That's about architecture more than resources. "Gotta get our shit together" doesn't negate the fact that shit isn't together yet.

It's good to have resources, but such a situation is still weakness. Only I think NATO in some sense is a contributing factor, and EU frankly too, both not in the least because of all those veto and consensus rules.

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[-] Oderus@lemmy.world 16 points 9 months ago

Fuck the tankies in here and praise UN and Sweden.

[-] REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml 13 points 9 months ago

It was a de facto member as long as NATO existed. Now it also is a de jure member too, a big nothing-burger.

[-] magic_lobster_party@kbin.run 19 points 9 months ago

NATO membership comes with guarantees and responsibilities.

The guarantee is that if Sweden would be attacked, other members will support with their troops. The responsibility is that Sweden must expand their military.

[-] REEEEvolution@lemmygrad.ml 11 points 9 months ago

The former won't happen. Sweden is sorrounded by friendly countries. The second is a downside for Sweden.

So globally it is a nothing burger and locally it is a negative development for Sweden.

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[-] whoisearth@lemmy.ca 10 points 9 months ago

Russia locked out of the Balkan Sea now?

[-] someguy3@lemmy.ca 19 points 9 months ago

They have Kaliningrad.

[-] zik@lemmy.world 6 points 9 months ago* (last edited 9 months ago)

Kaliningrad's fairly strategically useless to them now that every surrounding country's NATO though. The Suwałki Gap between Kaliningrad and Belarus used to be pivotal in potentially re-taking control of Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. It would have been very difficult for NATO defend them if Russia took the gap. But now those countries are protected by NATO countries all around so Kaliningrad's a lot less useful strategically. Not to mention that there's a strong Kaliningrad independence movement so they're struggling to control it internally as well.

More here.