It baffles me that there's even a discussion about this. Customers do not drive down Pike Place to access the market. It's already functionally a pedestrian space where occasionally some person takes a wrong turn and accidentally drives through. Vendors use it, but they arrive early in the morning before customers. It should be closed to regular traffic during normal shopping hours.
Hey there, I worked in the market for 5 years at a produce stand and still have contact with many vendors through my current job.
The big money customers are regulars who come down to the market weekly or bi-weekly to get a service level that is not provided at a regular grocery store. Those customers drop hundreds of dollars at multiple vendors and absolutely do drive through to get loaded up after shopping. Many of those customers are retirees that absolutely could not carry their purchases down to the parking garage.
The market is a very unique place and if it caters only to the tourists it will kill what makes it a tourist destination in the first place. It would become even more hollowed out as it drives away locals.
absolutely do drive through to get loaded up after shopping. Many of those customers are retirees that absolutely could not carry their purchases down to the parking garage.
Maybe we shouldn't be encouraging elderly citizens to drive through a street that is crowded with pedestrians? If you can walk through the market, you can take an elevator to Western.
The market is a very unique place and if it caters only to the tourists it will kill what makes it a tourist destination in the first place. It would become even more hollowed out as it drives away locals.
Locals are also walking on Pike Place, dodging cars that don't belong there. Making the market safer isn't going to drive people away.
Pretty disingenuous to say a person that can't carry $400 worth of groceries shouldn't be able to drive.
It will cease to be a market is my point, but hey we can just fill in that space with more corpo restaurants like the most recent addition. Problem solved I guess.
Pretty disingenuous to say a person that can’t carry $400 worth of groceries shouldn’t be able to drive.
I'm saying they should drive on a street for cars, not a street for people, which is what Pike Place is. We're literally talking about parking only the western side of the market rather than the eastern side. It isn't some distant hinterland.
It will cease to be a market is my point
This is just ridiculous. It's a huge market with tons of people who walk there and tons of other people who park at the easily accessible parking garage. Telling a handful of people they can't load their purchases on a street with negligible available parking and hordes of people walking between shops (because it's a busy market) will not harm the market in any capacity.
just fill in that space with more corpo restaurants
What are you on about? Do you just want to rant about corporations? The issue is that it's in practice a pedestrian street and already filled with pedestrians, so cars should be restricted. If you ban the cars, it's still full. That's the whole point of banning the cars.
I'm sharing my point of view as someone that has an direct understanding of not only the businesses in the market but their profit margins (historic businesses are already on a subsidized lease if you didn't know). If you want to write off that experience as unimportant then go ahead.
We’re literally talking about parking only the western side of the market rather than the eastern side.
Tell me you've never shopped at the market without ever telling me you've never shopped at the market. That is the side of the market with the butcher, the produce, the fish mongers its literally "the market" side.
You keep talking about safety but I have yet to see an extensive report on traffic incidents that compares to other downtown areas. I've spent my entire life going to the market and not once have I felt unsafe, I've yelled at a couple drivers but that's not unique to the market.
Tell me you’ve never shopped at the market without ever telling me you’ve never shopped at the market.
I've shopped at the market many times. The main market with the produce is on a narrow strip between Pike Place and Western Avenue. Due to the slope it's level with Pike Place and above Western Avenue, but that's what elevators are for. By actual walking distance the difference between parking on one side versus the other is trivial.
I've helped customers down to western before or out to the parking garage on the occasional festival day that does close the street. What could be an easy load in 2 minutes becomes a 30 minute walk round trip. That's 28 minutes I could have been making sales to street traffic on top of that large order. Nothing to you as a customer buying a few bags, but I just cannot stress enough that it matters to the vendors and will impact their already low bottom line. Their are no adjacent streets that provide easy access to the market and that's pointed out in the article.
The Urbanist had a story on this that was linked by Publicola and it looks pretty straight forward to me.
"Out of the 61 individual vendors and businesses that they were able to interview, only a handful — around five — were fully against the idea of moving the Market in a more pedestrian-oriented direction. “In this group of vendors, we found that they think the street works well, and they didn’t see any conflicts between pedestrians and private vehicles, believing the cars add to the market’s character and are needed for business purposes and bulk loads,” the pair wrote in a summary of their research."
And I don't anyone is arguing against cars for business purposes or bulk loads.... so that's kind of a red herring.
Also, cars adding to the market's character? Really? I mean bullshit all you want, but maybe be a teensy bit less shameless about it. Literally nobody thinks that.
"“The idea (of a car-less Pike Place) was finally implemented a decade or more ago by the Market landlord for one month during high summer season,” King wrote. “The results were a disaster for merchants in the four floors of retail below street level, known collectively as Down Under…. And so quietly the results of the ‘car free’ experiment in the Pike Place Market were shelved. It turned out that cars on Pike Place served as people distributors, forcing pedestrians to take a variety of routes to wind their way through the Market.”"
Honestly, if that's an argument being made, then there's no argument at all for not closing it. Seriously. "Cars push pedestrians into corners because their driving conflicts so much with walking traffic that it pushes pedestrians off the main street" is fucking INSANE to say out loud as if it was a great point.
Like, let's get creative about advertising the lower levels (and going there ourselves!) and close the fuckin street so lost tourists aren't driving inches away from megatons of pedestrians.
Do you not think it's odd that the non-profit Freinds of the Market, the organization that actually saved the market in the first place is against closing the street. An organization whose ongoing goal is "Support and promote activities to ensure Pike Place Market’s historic and traditional use as a farmers’ market."
I feel like many of the most vocal advocates for shutting down the street are ones who never actually use Pike Place as a market, but instead see it as a fun place to go out to lunch or look at the craft tables.
I've been in enough organizations to know that what the people running the organization want and what's best for everyone are often different things. I read what you wrote elsewhere in the thread and I think you're right, it needs to be addressed.
-but-
I think we can be creative enough to have the groceries and market goods find their ways to cars while also finding a way to stop having tourists accidentally turn into the market and almost run people over because seriously, all of us have seen a kid dart or a tourist not pay attention and that shit happens ALL THE DAMN TIME.
And I think 5 out of 61 vendors being against it means we should probably have already been looking for alternate solutions and the people that are just saying no should know when it's a losing cause and start coming up with ideas that get them what they need to succeed.
There are possible solutions, like a voucher to enter that vendors could hand out to customers. The problem is the traffic density of 1st and Pike and the problems of clueless tourists doesn't go away. There is not an easy turnaround for a car that doesn't have a voucher and now your holding up traffic in an intersection, you see it every time the market does shutdown traffic. Cars at least go slow through the market, 1st is way more of a public safety issue with the speed for cars getting stuck and trying to turn around.
A community for news and discussion of Seattle, Washington and the surrounding area