The polygamy thing works great for new religions because it is a sure fire way to easily create more adherents from a small amount of stock. Indoctrinating children from birth is way easier than converting adults.
It also makes it way easier to convert some adults
Mostly male adults
Mostly.
Any man who claims he's only polygamous for religious reasons is lying. We all know he just wants a harem of women in his bed.
Hey now don't be bigoted. Some of us want harems with more than just plain old women.
I believe that Satan has a hold of you.
I believe that the Lord God has sent me here.
And I believe that in 1978 God changed his mind about black people.
-"I Believe" from The Book of Mormon (the musical)
I see that show every time I go to NYC, its required.
We got the golden plates!
I don’t think anyone was framing Mormons as the good guys
Even by the standards of organized religion, Mormonism is very weird. Cf Ruby Franke. The early history is absolutely wild, and in Utah they still have tons of money and power and everyone acts like it’s just a normal thing.
The early history is absolutely wild, and in Utah they still have tons of money and power and everyone acts like it’s just a normal thing.
Replace Utah with USA, and it's the same thing with a lot of shit.
Now imagine how much the christian god's mind was changed by the roman government
Well, given that not long after the emperor converts it became deadly to possess the version of Jesus's sayings which claims he said "Let one who has become wealthy reign, and let one who has power renounce " (allegedly said at the time when Tiberius was the first emperor to inherit the kingdom due to dynastic claim vs accomplishments and had abandoned ruling to party but wouldn't turn over the position to anyone else) - probably just a wee bit of mind changing.
Thousands of Christians were martyred in the first centuries after Christs death. Often they were tortured and/or crucified.
To be fair, Joseph Smith wrote "The Articles of Faith" well before polygamy was abolished, which states:
- We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
So the belief that polygamy still has value may remain. Or it may not. It's hard to tell without a change in the law.
Mormons still practise polygamy sort of. They have "sealings" which is marriage forever, not just "'til death do us part". If a widow is to remarry, she needs to break the sealing to her dead spouse if she wishes to be sealed to get new one (or she could stay sealed to her first spouse and only marry the second until death).
A widower, however, doesn't need to break the previous sealing. He can be sealed to multiple women no problem. Essentially polygamy, but only in the afterlife.
Can confirm. If any Mormons are reading this and think it's made up-- ASK YOUR BISHOP what happens if you were to die or have a civil divorce and you or your spouse wants to remarry in the temple.
They don't teach this openly, and your bishop may beat around the bush but this is all true.
I've hung out with a bunch of Mormons and while they personally felt it was weird now, because they have grown up in a monogamous nation, the church itself would definitely gear up to switch back, if it was legal.
That would be a process, though. They are currently taught that it is morally fine, but following the laws of the land is important, and basically treat it like part of their history. On an individual level, the ones I know seemed fine with that, even those that had an active role in the church.
It's also not that strange in more secular contexts, see this article about polyamory in general. So I think it makes sense for people to be okay with the concept of plural marriage, while not wanting to engage with it themselves (e.g. it wouldn't work for me).
I suspect most of the time, non monogamy via religion is going to be shitty. It's probably going to favor men and be controlling.
I know many people who do consensual non monogamy in real life. Personally I don't like the DADT or strictly-hierarchical modes
People who aren't familiar with it say some pretty wild things about it.
My take is if you can have multiple friends, and you're okay with your friends having friends, you're like 80% of the way there.
The last 20% is likely to crash into "it just is, stop asking me to introspect this is uncomfortable and I'm mad!"
Yeah I agree. Religions have bonus rules related to that, but consent makes it fine, there's no actual ick there innately. There's plenty of room for a religion to make it creepy and not OK, but that's not fundamentally tied to polygamy.
I think organized religion is always a risk for causing trouble, but this Mormon God's flexibility is exactly the kind of anti-extremist leadership I'd like to see more of if we are going to keep doing the religion thing. Now if only he would get cool with beer and coffee.
The funny part is that Mormon god was only flexible when it suited Joseph Smith.
I mean, it's kinda oddly coincidental that God spoke to JS and told him that polygamy was ok right after his wife told him she was furiously against it, don't you think?
Honey, that was God, he just called and said it's totally OK for me to be into both you AND your sister. He said you really should chill about it.
Utah has a legal limit on the amount of alcohol that can be in cocktails because of those puritans lmfao
Now if only he would get cool with beer and coffee.
And birthdays and people who don't believe in him
Extremist anti-religion is way better. Then we won't have to compromise on weak-ass beer too.
Why is polygamy even illegal in the first place?
Because gender bounded polygamy causes serious social issues. Look at the FLDS for examples of it in modern day. My stance is to remove the gender bounding and enforce strict minimum age to marry laws. But yeah, 18th century USA wasn’t going to let women have multiple husbands much less let men have multiple husbands and women have multiple wives.
Polygamy =/= Polyamoury. Polygamy involves one person (almost always a man) having multiple spouses, often economically and legally dependent on him, which tends to result in abuse (quite surprisingly), as well as a surplus of people who remain single, which has its own set of problems. You probably have a good idea of what polyamoury is. Because historically we've mostly seen the former (in the case of the US, with the Mormons and its branching sects), but not the later, laws have been written to deal with the issues provoked by the former, but admittedly it's about time to allow polyamoury to have its own legal framing.
Tax reasons. You can have as many partners living with you as you want, but once past one "official" partner, it would get super complicated. Plus one wife would be able to hire the other partners as a way to disguise income and keep everyone just under the personal....wait. you can do that anyways.
You could set rules specifically for polyamourous marriage when it comes to taxes. I don't really see anything ethically wrong with the practice in and of itself when it's consensual to all and not just a scheme for bullshit like tax breaks/evasion or human trafficking.
I think official marriage is weird anyway. It's just a ritual stemming from religion that has been co-opted by governments to deal with stuff that doesn't matter to people who just wanna be together. 🤷🏻♂️
So many people divorce within a few years too, and (in most places, maybe not all) divorce is a long tedious drawn out process - so a lot of folks spend more time getting divorced than they do getting married.
Idk why people bother anymore, the tax bennies aren't even all that good for most people.I was with my ex for a decade, raising her kid, and breaking up with no muss no fuss here's your 30 day good luck in your future endeavors. Meanwhile it took her like 3 years to divorce her ex before me.
Idk why people bother anymore
Insurance benefits, ability to make medical decisions for your spouse and visit them in the hospital, access to your spouse's accounts if they die or become incapacitated. Lots of legal benefits you wouldn't think about until you need them.
Note that slavery was abolished in 1865 and the civil rights movement started in 1950s-1960s.
And in 1978 mormon god said that black men can have the priesthood which is mormon god's way of saying black men are treated as equals now. (Women, regardless of race, never were treated equally and still aren't).
The Mormon church likes to celebrate the fact that black men are treated equally but they never mention that this was 110 years after slavery was abolished and still ~3 decades after the civil rights movement started. Mormon God sure has great timing.
But polygamy is actually still alive and well in the Mormon church, and i mean the actual Mormon church and not an offshoot. The Mormons stopped practicing polygamy outright but it is still alive in how they actually treat marriage.
Under mormonism they marry you for eternity. Except if your spouse wants a divorce or they die then you are no longer married from a civil law perspective. If a woman wants to get married again then she needs to have special permission from the Mormon prophet which i believe they do to release her from the Mormon eternal sealing. To do this they also try to get the ex-husbands approval (and too bad if he's dead). Where this gets interesting is that if the husband wants to remarry then he can. No strings attached. He can have as many eternal sealings as he wants. No permission needed from the prophet or wife. Just can have only one civil marriage at a time but if you get a civil divorce then a man can easily get another eternal marriage and a woman cannot. Basically this means that Mormons are letting men practice polygamy in the afterlife. It's wild.
But this just one example of how women aren't treated equally in the Mormon church. And don't get me started on LGBTQIA+. But if you ever hear someone say mormonism likes the the gays they are gaslighting you. They believe that being gay is a sin and you can only be accepted at arm's reach if you're gay, but never do anything gay, and conform to your gender. Telling someone you accept them while believing part of them they can't change is a sin is Olympic level mental gymnastics. But welcome to Mormonism!
The Jehovah's Witnesses have this problem too. Their workaround is that "their [anonymous] governing body has had new revelations and insights" so now it works like this.
For a cult to survive the death of its founder, it needs to be picked up by a strong right-have man who can reform it into something that'll survive - but not in a way that will alienate all the followers.
I suspect the Mormans do something similar. Do they have a patriarch or use an elder counsel?
The mormons have a living prophet, who personally receives revelations with a 'direct line' to God somewhat like the catholic pope.
They also believe that these rules and their changes are necessary, as God sets the rules required to spread his faith. Polygamy is usually thought of (for lds) as a temporary act used to grow his re-created church via birth. Once it became a detriment, he saw it fit to disallow.
It's a powerful idea that makes it impossible for a person to see contradictions in a constantly changing religion. Any contradictions are simply God working in mysterious ways. He said what was needed, and now something new is required
As for the last part they must of had some awesome power to enslave "demons" for so long. I wonder how the mental gymnastics worked on that one?
At least in previous history, Soloman was probably involved. /s
My favorite argument is that I was given access to Super God when I a child. Which gives me access to Super Heaven when I die. It's waaaaay better that regular heaven. You keep praying to regular god or whatever, you mud dwelling peasant. I'll be looking down on you from Super Heaven and laughing for Extra Eternity.
Ah yes, the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, reserved only for married (m-f) Mormons, where polygamy is allowed but only for men to have multiple wives, not vice versa.
Much better than those telestial peasants. Muahaha
When you realize that the Mormon church is a business it makes more sense.
When you realize that the ~~Mormon~~ church is a business it makes more sense.
This actually makes Mormon God sort of more reasonable compared to other, stubborn gods, right? I mean making their followers lives easier by letting them to not confront civic government makes sense...
For preserving the least toxic and most culturally relevant Tumblr heritage posts.
Image descriptions and plain text captions of written content are expected of all screenshots. Here are some image text extractors (I looked these up quick and will gladly take FOSS recommendations):
-web
-iOS
Please begin copied raw text posts (lacking a screenshot that makes it apparent it is from Tumblr) with:
# This has been reposted here to Lemmy as part of the "Curated Tumblr Project."
I made the icon using multiple creative commons svg resources, the banner is this.
