hmmm : hmmm

[–] Snapz@lemmy.world 5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (2 children)

It's criminal that they are able to lock up this tech behind patents. Not really a better illustration of the failings of capitalism. We have the solution to very severe, life altering common injuries... and it's only available to wealthy people.

Sawstop tech should be standard in every single table saw sold in the world, and the brakes should be universal to all machines, so they can be manufactured/sold in bulk for cheap.

P.S. Saw stop should still be compensated for the breakthrough, should definitely be like winning the lottery when you invent something with such a universal need. But should not be able to be "locked behind a paywall" under any circumstances.

[–] Kleysley@lemmy.fmhy.ml 2 points 2 years ago (1 children)

These solutions were only invented because of that. If everyone could just copy it, nobody would take the trouble of trying to come up with a solution. Also, not only wealthy people can afford this, pretty much everyone who can afford a table saw can also afford it. A pretty good illustration of the advantages of capitalism if you ask me...

[–] code_is_speech@lemmy.fmhy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

Both of you are wrong: patents, patent law, and other forms of state-granted monopoly don't really have much to do with capitalism at all. They are examples of state intervention in the economy, and if anything, they are more aligned with socialist policies typical of a mixed market. (Although in a 'true' socialist country, the monopoly would be granted to the state itself, so arguably patents are not socialist either). Perhaps calling them "statist" would be the most accurate description.

At any rate, I think there are certainly some positives to such legally enforced monopolies. However, there are many glaring problems that you don't have to look far to find.

The biggest issue for me is the belief that someone is capable of 'owning' an idea/thought. I find this to be completely ridiculous and in direct contradiction with free speech, free expression, and actual physical property rights.

I also find the idea that nobody would innovate or create if they couldn't apply for a state-sponsored monopoly completely laughable. You are using a platform right now that intentionally does not use any of these powers and actually goes as far as to give a free license to anybody to use, modify, copy, and redistribute their design, which they openly publish.

Of course, not all businesses would have to follow this model. In a world free of patents and IP restrictions, businesses and individuals would simply have to take their own information security more seriously, ensuring not to leak sensitive data and using legal tools like NDA's to protect themselves when seeking funding or collaborating with other businesses, etc.

Once the product goes to market, it's fair game for others to inspect, copy, and improve on the design. I think this is completely reasonable and the only ethical solution.

The idea that you could be granted a total monopoly, protected by state violence, on any idea, let alone a life-saving medication or an important safety feature, is just bizarre and abhorrent to me.

[–] Solemn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Their patents were allowed to be too broad. The creater for SawStop tried to get this tech mandated by law in the US, which is fine, but was also trying to make sure it would all have to be HIS patented tech.

I'd honestly be fine with OSHA or something mandating this in commercial applications, but it can't be locked down to a single technology. Iirc Bosch made a better technology within a few years, but was forced to abandon it due to the SawStop patents, which is exactly what patents aren't supposed to do.

[–] Snapz@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I know Bosch had A version, didn't know it was perceived as better though - do you recall why it was better?

[–] Solemn@lemmy.dbzer0.com 2 points 2 years ago

Didn't destroy the blade. Iirc, instead of using the blade's momentum to retract, it used a couple of blanks. This let you replace the cartridge but keep the undamaged blade.

[–] Xariphon@kbin.social 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Honestly, I would get a Saw Stop if I could afford one. This guy learned he needed one the hard way, but if you do any serious woodworking it's probably the first expensive tool you should upgrade to. Festool gadgets are nice and all but this thing will literally save your limbs.

[–] someguy3@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago) (1 children)

I read the patent is over so there should be lots of brands that have it.

[–] Dettweiler42@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

I recently bought table saw for about $300, and it has a version of non-branded saw stop built in.

[–] Itty53@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I do a lot of woodworking and this is an ongoing debate you can find in most woodworking forums: if you use one of these, you're much more likely to need it. So all you're really doing is paying to be lazy and unsafe.

Fact is you can operate a table saw perfectly safely without a saw stop. Proper use of push blocks, paying attention, and basic safety protocol like "no gloves, no sleeves" and you'll never hurt yourself using these tools. It just requires discipline.

Don't believe me, look at the numbers. In the US there's about ten million table saws in operation every year and about 3000 injuries annually. Cars have a bigger causality count. They're perfectly safe tools if you're using them properly.

[–] artifice@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

Why not just get one and practice proper safety procedures?

[–] Minzert@lemmy.fmhy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

Didn't you hear him? That's unsafe you lazy bum /s

[–] Itty53@kbin.social -3 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Does your car have a roll cage? Why not? Parachute breaks? Why not? Five point harness? Why not?

You can keep adding safety features to your car ..why don't you? Theres your answer. Would you buy a car that's going to blow the airbag every time you slam the breaks, then refuse to start until you replace it? Nah. It's a poorly implemented safety feature that's just making the thing not work. Saw stops are exactly that.

[–] zaph@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence?wprov=sfla1

[–] Itty53@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago (1 children)

It's the same exact question, if you have safety features available for dangerous tools, ones that cost extra, why aren't you employing them?

Use your words, a link isn't a rebuttal.

Just for fun, here's a bunch of professionals discussing why people who rely on saw stop are a liability on their floor... Up to and including "do not hire". It's exactly what I already described. This tech breeds complacency and there's more tools in that shop than the table saw. Professionals don't use saw stops.

https://sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?262574-Sawstop-Injury-I-didn-t-think-this-could-happen/page12

[–] zaph@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I payed for the safety features I felt I needed and I'd do the same if I was buying a saw.

[–] Itty53@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago (2 children)

If you feel you need that feature on a table saw, frankly you shouldn't be operating one at all. Really. There's no shame in that. I am terrified of lathes and I won't use em. I understand they're useful and perfectly safe, but it's just a personal thing. If you feel that unsafe that you'll essentially pay an ante every time you want to make a cut? You shouldn't be using it.

Fact is that saw stop will cost you a bunch of money over the course of using it for a few years. It will ruin blades to protect... Damp wood. Or a staple, often found on lumber. And then you get to buy another charge for a couple hundred bucks. You'll do that twice before finally realizing it was just a money sink in the first place and you won't buy another.

Go ask twenty table saw owners the question, you're gonna get twenty identical answers.

[–] FlagonOfMe@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

First off, the brake is $100, not "a couple hundred". The blade is ruined, but decent blades aren't crazy expensive either.

A staple won't trigger the saw stop unless you are also touching it. It works on capacitance, and a staple doesn't have any capcitance on its own.

You must only surround yourself with people who are prejudiced against SawStops. Twenty identical answers? Come on! The company wouldn't exist if people didn't buy them.

When everything goes 100% perfectly, table saws are very safe. I have hundreds of hours using them, and not one injury. But if something goes wrong, I'd rather have the safety of a SawStop.

Growing up, my father told me of a friend of his who slipped when operating a table saw and fell face first onto it. He lived, but you can imagine the damage it did to his face. It went right between his eyes, thankfully. A SawStop would have prevented that.

Your car analogies are stupid, too... if I had a choice between buying a car without airbags and one with, I would buy the one with. Same with seatbelts and crumple zones. People like you have been around for hundreds of years saying shit like, "I don't wear a seat belt. They're for sissies."

Accidents happen even when you're taking all of the normal safety precautions. No gives a shit if some forum full of good ol' boys thinks using a SawStop makes you a bad person. Stop being such a hater. If someone wants to buy a SawStop, why do you care? Don't answer that. I actually don't care.

I don't own a SawStop, so I'm not trying to defend my purchase. I just think you're an idiot for going out of your way to trash talk them.

[–] zaph@lemmy.world 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

I'm not reading a wall of text for something I care so little about. People can spend their money how they want.

[–] Itty53@kbin.social -1 points 2 years ago

Awh reading is hard.

You don't even own a table saw. I bet you've never even used one.

Your opinion on them isn't near as valuable as that of owners and professionals who use them all the time. It costs you nothing to spread a bad opinion. I'm gonna correct it to help strangers save money. Deal with it.

[–] adespoton@lemmy.ca 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Does it stop on contact with plaster though? I think this guy might be in trouble still.

[–] FlagonOfMe@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago

What's under the plaster?

[–] MelastSB@sh.itjust.works 0 points 2 years ago (1 children)

Guess if there's contact it's too late ^^

[–] SzethFriendOfNimi@lemmy.world 1 points 2 years ago

It’s pretty slick how it works.

Trashes your blade and you have to replace the canister but that’s better than losing a finger.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=SYLAi4jwXcs&feature=share