There is nothing Hamas could have done on October 7 that would justify committing genocide against Palestine.
MarxMadness
joined 2 years ago
Any reading you can recommend on this?
Who cares if the arguments resemble one another? The underlying situations are what determine if the argument makes any sense.
"I was afraid for my life" is a fine argument for firing back if someone pulls a gun and starts shooting at you. It's ridiculous when it comes from a cop who opens fire on a kid with something in his hands.
if ukranians want to stay independent russia should respect that
The parts of Ukraine Russia controls right now were trying to break away from Ukraine before the war. And again, Russia is not trying to conquer Ukraine -- the goal is to keep Ukraine out of NATO.
nobody can strip their right to resistance and the over 60k dead Palestinians responsibility lay exclusively on Israel
Palestinians and Ukranians both have a right to resist attackers. I'm saying it's sensible for Palestinians to do so (because their attacker has stated their intent to exterminate them, so it's either fight or die), but not sensible for Ukrainians to do so (because their attacker just wants them not to join NATO, and because there is no realistic hope of the war turning around).
As for who's responsible for the deaths: Ukraine's government almost immediately sold out their people when they (on the advice of Boris Johnson) backed out of ceasefire agreement they had tentatively agreed to in the opening weeks of the war. By choosing to use their people to fight a proxy war for NATO when there was an easy out on the table, they are partly responsible for the deaths of their people.
Israel say that there is no Palestinians and all the land is our , Russia say that Ukrainians are just Russians that Ukraine was simply part of Russia .
It cannot be overstated how completely different these situations are. Israel is trying to exterminate Palestinians. Russia does not want Ukraine to be part of a hostile, nuclear-armed military pact. Palestinians are fighting because otherwise Israel will kill them. Ukrainians are fighting because their coup government is having its strings pulled by NATO.
I think Russia could have with economic pressure alone stop Ukraine from joining NATO
They tried since 2014, and Ukraine still wouldn't give it up (or keep their domestic fascist groups from attacking Russian speakers in Eastern Ukraine). It turns out Ukraine and NATO weren't even negotiating in good faith, as Angela Merkel admitted about the Minsk II agreement.
There is the type who say palestinians should resist... They say if hamas never attacked
If anyone says this, they don't mean it, because it's completely contradictory. They're lying to you.
I would like ukranians to stop dying but not by giving up part of their land
There's no future resolution to this war that leaves Ukraine with more land than they have today. Continuing the war just means it will end with less Ukranian land and less Ukranians.
It's unlike Palestine because Russia is not fighting a war of extermination and is not trying to drive residents from their homes. The people in the parts of pre-war Ukraine that Russia now controls aren't being massacred or evicted; they are predominantly Russian speakers who had (to be charitable to Ukraine) legitimate grievances with the Ukranian government after the U.S.-backed coup in 2014.
From the Ukrainian perspective, there is actually a benefit to a peace on Russia's terms: Ukraine keeps more of its land and its people stop dying. There's nothing to be gained by continuing the war because it isn't going to turn around. This is again unlike Palestine, where peace on Israeli terms would involve at minimum the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, and where western public support for Israel has collapsed.
They think Palestinians should be driven from their homes or exterminated. They don't care how many Palestinians die, so why would they make that argument? I've never heard a zionist say that.
If you care how many Ukranians die, you'd want the war to end sooner rather than later. The peace terms aren't getting any better, so all their government is doing is getting more of their people killed.
[Resources are] finite, as is our capacity to replenish them.
You think this is propaganda?
Arming Ukraine just prolongs a war that's clearly lost. That costs more lives than it saves.
What's more important than the nuances of appropriations is the fact that Biden could have stopped giving weapons to a state committing genocide, but didn't.
Everything else he did or didn't do with respect to the situation is comparatively minor.
Why wouldn't they be low after supplying Ukraine and now Israel for so long? They're finite, as is our capacity to replenish them. There's been plenty of reporting on the limits of our ability to do so.
Skepticism is warranted, but it could easily be true.
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*The atomic unit of propaganda isn't lies, but emphasis.