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this post was submitted on 14 Aug 2024
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UK Politics
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I agree that Starmer should first and foremost condemn Israel and bring them to justice and that should be the initial position.
I agree Israel should face international justice, so both you and I, and Starmer, are on the same page, there. If Iran does launch some kind of attack on Israel, I think that will delay any justice, while worsening the situation in Gaza and the Middle East (by which I mean, to be clear, lots of people will die, which is the last thing we want). So to me it seems fair to try and persuade everyone involved to solve this diplomatically, which is what Starmer is asking Iran and Israel to do:
Naturally while speaking to Iran, he's focusing on Iran's choices, but it's consistent with his current position calling on Israel to agree to negotiate a ceasefire and allow humanitarian aid into Gaza.
When Starmer went on record as saying Israel the right to defend itself. Where was all the talk about saving lives? Now that it's a brown nation that has the right to defend itself, you're calling for de-escalation. Be consistent Frank.
I've seen Starmer condemn Hamas, where has he condemned Israel? https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/hamas-david-lammy-gaza-palestinians-john-mcdonnell-b2427321.html
In fact, while the world watches Israel commits war crimes, Starmer and yourself continue to throw support their way, vocally and otherwise https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/8/uks-new-pm-starmer-calls-for-urgent-need-for-gaza-ceasefire
Speaking up for people failing to condemn the murdering of innocent men, women and children in shelters, schools and hospitals is abhorrent as far as I'm concerned.
The world will look back on this and a lot of people should be fucking ashamed of themselves.
Happy to discuss this or indeed anything with anyone, but I won't have my views misrepresented. I've not said this or anything like it, ever.
I'm sorry, how else would you like us to interpret
Followed by
Especially in light of the links above where Starmer clearly isn't impartial.
I would like you to interpet it at face value. It does not say that I support Israel committing war crimes.
Big ole assumption on your part here. You don't have to cover every side of a situation when you discuss a specific facet.
Their second quote could certainly be followed by a sentence reflecting on Israel's massive issues, without losing the consistency of narrative.
I agree with you, however condemning Israel it all ends up like Corbyn, vilified and attacked with qoutes like 'terrorist sympathizers' by the mainstream media. I hate the UK media like the plague.
The Brits haven't even come to terms with the shit they did in India you think they'll ever own up to the chaos they've caused in the Middle East?
Just take comfort that the UK is an irrelevance now.
out of interest could you link to a time you've called for israel to face international justice outside the context of "iran should also face international justice"?
Can you arbitrarily provide me with evidence of what you think about any given thing with the precise context I think is important? Because, if not, I don't see why you'd expect this of anyone else.
literally the thing we're talking about
literally any context other than this specific one
if you only ever bring up how israel needs to face international justice in the context of iran facing international justice, it kind of sounds like you don't really care about israel facing international justice
Do you write down every opinion you have and publish it in case someone asks you to prove that you think it at a later date? That is what you're asking of me.
As far as I know, you have the opposite problem. Have you ever demanded international justice for Iran without also demanding it for Israel? Prove it! It's a ridiculous standard.
my account is 3 days old and your account is over 300 days old
you've been plenty active in feddit.uk over the past few months, which has had plenty of news stories to pick from where it would've been a relevant remark, and it's not like you haven't spoken about israel during that time, and the harshest thing you've had to say about the situation is now, but only in the context of iran also deserving international justice
Do you think my Lemmy experience represents the totality of my views? Can you give me a specific number of months on Lemmy I can use before it's fair for me to judge all of your opinions?
oh we're playing the "draw the precise, exact line" game, are we?
whatever that line is, a year and multiple times talking specifically about israel seems like enough time to get across a sentiment more negative than "i guess israel is kind of bad, but we can't be too hasty about these things"
I look forward to the day when you've have also written down the sum total of your opinions on one public forum, so that you can be judged on the grounds you consider fair.
i'm not asking for the sum total of your opinions
i'm asking for any evidence an opinion which you've previously been happy to provide on several past occasions isn't in piss-baby centrist territory
Purity tests and insults are self-defeating. How about engaging with the substance of what people in this thread are saying?
whether or not you actually care about israel's war crimes is very obviously materially relevant to the conversation
And I've said I do. The problem is that you're obsessed with 'proving' I don't, something you cannot do. This is your problem, not mine.
yes because people never say things that aren't true or that they don't really believe
it's not really anybody's problem that you're a hypocrite, but it is relevant to point out that it's likely the case
Your (false) belief about my beliefs is not relevant to my argument or to me. It is certainly not very helpful to whatever cause you think you're espousing to rely on purity tests and insults rather than any cogent responses to other people's arguments.
pointing out that when you say "iran and israel should face international justice", you only mean "iran should face international justice" is relevant, yes
i'm not insulting you when i call you a hypocrite, i'm just accurately labeling the thing you're doing, and if you take the word for the thing you're doing as an insult, that's maybe a sign you should stop doing that thing
if you want to take referencing a year's worth of posts establishing your position on israel as a purity test then i could play my own fun little line drawing game
But I don't mean that. My posting history about Israel suggests nothing of the sort. It's mostly me talking about what other people have said about Israel. When I do give my own opinions on Israel, they're 1. To criticise Starmer's earlier, weak position on Gaza; 2. To criticise Trump moving the US embassy. To characterise those comments as though they represent a year's worth of pro-Israel comments is ludicrous.
I'm not interested in talking about this any further with you.
i guess defending starmer's "earlier, weak position on gaza" is more or less equivalent to criticism of it