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My problem with atheism (lemmy.world)
submitted 3 months ago by platypus_plumba@lemmy.world to c/atheism@lemmy.world
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First of all, I have more in common with atheists than religious people, so my intention isn't to come here and attack, I just want to hear your opinions. Maybe I'm wrong, I'd like to hear from you if I am. I'm just expressing here my perception of the movement and not actually what I consider to be facts.

My issue with atheism is that I think it establishes the lack of a God or gods as the truth. I do agree that the concept of a God is hard to believe logically, specially with all the incoherent arguments that religions have had in the past. But saying that there's no god with certainty is something I'm just not comfortable with. Science has taught us that being wrong is part of the process of progress. We're constantly learning things we didn't know about, confirming theories that seemed insane in their time. I feel like being open to the possibilities is a healthier mindset, as we barely understand reality.

In general, atheism feels too close minded, too attached to the current facts, which will probably be obsolete in a few centuries. I do agree with logical and rational thinking, but part of that is accepting how little we really know about reality, how what we considered truth in the past was wrong or more complex than we expected

I usually don't believe there is a god when the argument comes from religious people, because they have no evidence, but they could be right by chance.

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 3 months ago

Something rooted in reason can be a wild guess when the reasoning isn’t mature enough to handle the subject.

Example, please. I would say when you start wildly guessing, it ceases to be reason. Speculation based on available evidence might involve reason, but a wild guess is, as far as I can tell, as lacking reason as possible.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

This topic is the example. Just because you're using your rational thought doesn't mean you're getting anywhere near an actual answer or having a better chance of answering "is there a creator"?

You can use all the reason you want, you just don't understand reality with such depth that you can start scratching that question.

Schrodinger was using reason when he proposed his paradox... But he was wrong because he lacked knowledge. Without actual knowledge, logical thought can make sense but still be wrong. Reality is more complex than the conceptual abstractions our minds use.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

I don't have to make any wild guesses to say that I don't believe there are any gods due to a lack of empirical evidence.

But then you're still, and I think intentionally now, trying to claim that knowledge and belief are the same thing. They are not, and atheism is still about belief and not knowledge.

I realize you don't like that, but that's still what atheism means. A lack of belief. Guesses aren't needed to lack belief in something. I don't have to guess to not believe in werpreopwerwqop because there is no reason for me to believe it exists.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I don't know why you keep saying I'm saying belief and knowledge are the same. They are not the same. My point is that belief without knowledge is pointless. See? Not the same.

Belief based on knowledge = good.

Belief without knowledge = not good.

Do I have knowledge about the creation of the universe? Do I understand reality? Do I know anything about a creator? No. Thus, I choose not to believe anything about it. Anything I choose to believe without actual understanding is just a guess.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 2 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Because you keep saying that. You said "I don't know" is a step between belief and non-belief. No it isn't. Because it's a lack of knowledge, which is not belief.

You also think lacking belief in gods is about knowledge. It isn't. Therefore, atheism isn't. So stop talking about knowledge as it relates to atheism because it does not.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

Yes, because I don't know then I don't have a belief.

As I said, even Schrodinger's paradox seemed logical and rational, he based his belief on it. Turns out he was wrong because he lacked knowledge, so his belief was just a guess. In his case, his belief was a good guess considering how close he was to the subject.

How close are we to understanding reality and it's origin? Not close at all. Even if we used our rational thought, our belief would be a pretty wild guess, because we have basically no knowledge.

So can you believe without knowledge? Sure. If you believe with knowledge, that's even better. Schdoringer believed based on a ton of knowledge and logical thought, and he was still wrong. Why? He lacked more knowledge. Now imagine me, believing with no understanding of the origin of reality... How close can I be to the actual answer. Not close. So, what's the point of believing?

Can you believe without knowledge. Sure. But why? Lack of belief and accepting ignorance is the humble path.

The more you know about a subject, the more you should allow yourself to believe things on that subject.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Yes, because I don’t know then I don’t have a belief.

If you don't have a belief, you lack belief. Because belief and non-belief are a binary and there is no third option no matter how many times you claim knowing something is belief.

You can keep talking about understanding things, but understanding things is also not belief. You also keep talking about rational thought, but rationality is not belief.

So, again-

Knowledge is not belief.
Understanding is not belief.
Rationality is not belief.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

I think I already said this before. If by "not believing" you mean "lack of belief", we're on the same page. I think lack of belief is the right approach to unknown subjects.

Give yourself the luxury of believing things only when you actually know about the subject. That means chances your belief is right are decent. Otherwise, don't shape your life based on a guess.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

I do not mean that.

That is what atheism means.

Otherwise, don’t shape your life based on a guess.

Please give an example of an atheist who shapes their life on atheism. I have never met one. I certainly don't.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Pretty sure there are plenty of atheists that are constantly on the lookout to attack people who they don't agree with. Anyways, shaping your life is not just about what you do but also about the way you think. Someone who believes God doesn't exist because there's no evidence, probably has other beliefs about things they don't really understand. Letting go of those ideas that seem logical but have no basis helps lower the ego. Letting go and accepting ignorance feels much better than forming opinions without knowledge.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

If you're pretty sure, you can give an example. Otherwise, you're just making one of those wild guesses you don't like.

[-] platypus_plumba@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I have experienced them, pretty sure you have too. It's something common and it isn't the type of guess I refer to. We have knowledge and experience about people behaving that way towards others. It's based on knowledge.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 1 points 3 months ago

Have you experienced them or is this just your idea of what these people value most in their lives and consider the primary part of their identity based on internet discussions with complete strangers?

this post was submitted on 31 Aug 2024
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