819
NATO apologism
(lemmy.world)
Incase anyone tells you that lemmy.ml is not a tankie instance.
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 05 Sep 2024
819 points (96.3% liked)
MeanwhileOnGrad
1338 readers
22 users here now
"Oh, this is calamity! Calamity! Oh no, he's on the floor!"
Welcome to MoG!
Meanwhile On Grad
Documenting hate speech, conspiracy theories, apologia/revisionism, and general tankie behaviour across the fediverse. Memes are welcome!
What is a Tankie?
Alternatively, a detailed blog post about Tankies.
(caution of biased source)
Basic Rules:
Sh.itjust.works Instance rules apply! If you are from other instances, please be mindful of the rules. — Basically, don't be a dick.
Hate-Speech — You should be familiar with this one already; practically all instances have the same rules on hate speech.
Apologia — (Using the Modern terminology for Apologia) No Defending, Denying, Justifying, Bolstering, or Differentiating authoritarian acts or endeavours, whether be a Pro-CCP viewpoint, Stalinism, Islamic Terrorism or any variation of Tankie Ideology.
Revisionism — No downplaying or denying atrocities past and present. Calling Tankies shills, foreign/federal agents, or bots also falls under this rule. Extremists exist. They are real. Do not call them shills or fake users as it handwaves their extremism.
Tankies can explain their views but may be criticised or attacked for them. Any slight infraction on the rules above will immediately earn a warning and possibly a ban.
Off-topic Discussion — Do not discuss unrelated topics to the point of derailing the thread. Stay focused on the direct content of the post as opposed to arguing.
You'll be warned if you're violating the instance and community rules. Continuing poor behaviour after being warned will result in a ban or removal of your comments. Bans typically only last 24 hours, but each subsequent infraction will double the amount. Depending on the content, the ban time may be increased. You may request an unban at any time.
founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS
He certainly played up to the role, presumably for egotistical reasons, but most of it was sabre rattling bravado. He wasn't seen as a genuine threat by Western intelligence agencies.
Also, NATO forces didn't have to kill Gaddafi directly in order to be instrumental to his deposition. Their air strikes were highly effective in destabilizing the regime and empowering opposition forces within Libya. Besides, you only have to look at the history of US intervention in Latin America for many examples of how regime change can be carried out via proxies and rebel groups.
My dude, this ignores like 40 years of him being the most unhinged leader in North Africa. He's always been a wild card on the global political stage, swinging wildly from befriending revolutionary leftist, and then immediately dumping them for right winged dictators.
The man literally tried to sell surface-to-air missiles to a street gang in Chicago...... No one had to make him seem crazy, he was crazy.
Now that doesn't mean I think the US should have intervened, but I don't think anyone had to really do any work to make him seem like an insane supervillain.
That also overlooks all the times western powers were friendly with Gaddafi. They didn't mind him following his ascent to power, nor in the post 9-11 period when the U.S. and European countries restored diplomatic ties with Libya, and Western oil companies re-entered the Libyan oil sector.
In 2007, the UK's Tony Blair visited Libya to strike up energy deals, and France's Sarkozy met with Gaddafi for military and economic agreements.
Was Gaddafi a supervillain then too, or did he only become one when his interests were no longer aligned with the Western powers?
That was my point about him swapping out friends sporadically. Gaddafi had massive swings in political alignment throughout his time as leader of Libya. The reason nato/un could actually make a move on his government without greater political ramifications is because he's burned every bridge across the political spectrum.
Literally yes...... Is it that surprising the west would work with a crazy despot that has a bunch of oil?
It seems we're largely in agreement then - that 1) NATO did, in fact, make a move on Gaddafi and 2) the West supported him when it was beneficial but turned on a dime the minute he stopped cooperating.
Not something I ever disputed? Would be kinda hard for a rebel force to get a cruise missile.
This I don't really agree with as it's a bit of a reductionist mischaracterization. Gaddafi literally funded terrorist attacks on the US in the 80s, which led to about 15-20 years of political disruptions between the two countries. They normalized relations again in the early 00s, with the US eventually going as far as to delist them from the state sponsored terror list in 08.
It would be hard to describe that as "turned on a dime the minute he stopped cooperating". There's a reason why no one in the UN, including Russia and China UN vetoed the resolution.
According to the Regan administration perhaps, but not according to intelligence agencies from several European countries. There was a concerted effort to link Gaddafi to individual terrorist attacks, like the Lockerbie bombing, although there was no hard evidence to support that.
Again, a reductionist interpretation. There's been a lot of conspiracies over the years due to so many groups initially claiming responsibility. However the trial held in the UK and a recent one in 2020 both point to the same culprit.
I think you may be talking about the bombing in Germany.
Either way, the point is that Gaddafi has sponsored over 15 violent paramilitary groups in other people's countries. Not exactly going to be winning a lot of friends on the global stage by doing that.
This is not what stable leadership looks like ...
US involvement in South America has been brutal- murder, terrorism, starting civil wars...Societies were torn apart in ways they may never recover from. How can you consider this an option and publicly advocate for it? That's fucked up
Edit: ITT people downvoting me who don't want to hear about US operations in South America and also people who like US operations in South America.
Cause it's whataboutism, not cause it's wrong.
Yey USA tankies!
calling something whataboutism is such a cop-out. what has the user said that distracts from the greater debate?
Cause the USA could leave NATO tomorrow and the discussion of NATO vs Russia wouldn't change. So the USA is irrelevant in this conversation. Plus, those were USA/CIA actions, not NATO actions. And NATO isn't ruled by the USA, no matter how much some people around here like insisting.
the conversation had mentioned the US, western powers and derailed to an extent from the original post.